Hundreds ‘still missing’ in Iran: rights group

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090628/wl_afp/iranunrestrights_20090628144613

“What Syria wants is the Golan Heights back.” “Asad is an opportunist.” “If Syria can be brought on board with a peace effort, Iran no longer has direct supply lines into Lebanon.”

While true, most analysts and Western policy-makers might very well be missing a major point, yet again.

Syria, with its position in the heart of the Middle East and the aspiration of its people, cannot be abstracted into a single, bite-size compartmentalized deal.

Analysts should know that Syria couldn’t be cut off from events and happenings in its neighborhood. Signing a peace treaty with Syria does not mean that HA will be left out to rot. Nor does not mean that Israel can now do what it wishes with Hamas. But, the prize-winner of most stupid analysis must be given to the one that says Iran will be weakened if Syria is finally flipped.

One would think that with so many scholars and analysts specializing in Syria and the Middle East today, one would finally come out and tell the Obama administration – an administration that is genuinely and frantically looking for a solution – to look for a holistic view of the Middle East and understand that dividing it into smaller parts (aka, “tracks”)will yield yet a bigger problem whose sum is orders of magnitude larger than its parts.

Whatever happened to live and learn? Ignorance about Syria seems to be on the rise, unfortunately.

I agree ford with when you are saying that Assad does really want the golan….but i do not agree this comes with the peace with Israel; and anyways the golan in its totally which i guess means from 1967 lines or even 1949 lines i don’t know which one it is for Assad is not reachable sorry israel will not retreat cause if they did the arabs in the north would see this as weeknees plus the golan has been longer israeli than syrian and plus the water from the golan runs south to israel to the kinneret plus the golan before 1948 part of it was jewish owned!I am sorry for Assad it will be peace i hope but not all of the golan will be his because if it was he would declare war within a few years:just look at history !plus not all the golan is syria historically even though it is true that majd al shams and ghajar should be returned but the rest is israeli!And israelis have finished with retreating!

Joshua,

The link you provided to the review of Benny Morris’ book seems to be broken. I think the correct link is this:

http://middleastforum.blogspot.com/2009/06/one-state-two-state.html

Yossi i disagree with the article the jews were very happy in 1948 to live with their neighboors palestine but the arabs fled regrouped and attacked from north from south from the middle from the east and from the west ! And the caged animals as they were called the jews fought to survive! Today’s situation is just the continuation of this pattern and yes palestine lovers your day will come but for that you will have to once again be asked to accept the jewish nation as jewish humans! with the human right to have their state called Israel!And i am not talking about “occupied palestine” i am talking about Israel proper!

But i guess that is too much too ask to be treated like human beings from our arab brothers, ha majid?????Tell me in 1929 there was no israel or in fact no palestine,and no settlers, and in hebron, arabs were slaughtering my family why?Is it because you do not see us as human beings?

I tend to agree with the Dr. on his two point reasons about the shallowness of the western analysts regarding the effects of last couple weeks’ events in Iran on the Revolution. I may even add that these analysts know zilch about Iran. I will add my reasoning herein below.

The catch word currently in the streets of Iran is no longer the same ‘Where is My Vote” as it was just one week ago. No sir, it all changed now, and votes do not count anymore due to this flagrant attempt by imperialists to play malice in the Republic. Believe it or not, it is “wily fox”, i.e. William the Fox or more to the point Imperial evil Britain planning to reinstall the Shah as in 1953. There is no deficiency of catch words to go by either. How about secret “puppet master” for 10 downing street behind all this evil? You want the proof? Just listen to FM Manouchahr Mouttaki. The Brits stealthily and in a puppet-like manner acted on a plan that consists of two main elements to reassert their mastership over Iran and solve Britain’s ailing economy at the expense of the Iranian people. It is as simple as this. First, they recently started a malicious BBC Persian network broadcasting into Iran. Then just before the elections, they ordered British Airways to swap all its scheduled flights to Tehran with larger 747 jets, which it packed with hand-picked “passengers with special intelligence and security ambitions,” who flooded into downtown Tehran, received orders from coded messages on the BBC and persuaded thousands of otherwise unwilling Iranians to protest.

You see how sinister and mischievous? In the meantime Mr. Moussavi and Co. are so frustrated and suspicious by the untimely death of Mr. Michael Jackson that they are totally convinced that the CIA may have a hand in this timing. Mr. Moussavi, thus, concluded that the US is, as usual, unreliable. So he promised never to call for new demonstrations except with permission from the Government, while he told his supporters that he will continue the struggle peacefully. In the meantime, his website has been hacked. On the other hand the Ayat(s) are seriously investigating reports about the truth of Mr. Jackson’s conversion to Islam, and if so, a suggestion is being considered by the Guardian Council to confer martyrdom status on the pop star which would even elevate him in the heavens to levels a back alley “Billy Jean” chanter could never have dreamed of 30 years ago! The Guardian Council has just declared the recent election result the most transparent and accurate election in the history of the Republic.

So, what is the moral behind this saga? The se so-called Western analysts have no clue about the mysterious ways that Allah acts in order to protect the faithful. Yes sir, the Revolution is sanctioned by the Al-Mighty and no attempt by the mischievous, decadent, so-called Liberal West will have a chance of foiling this Heavenly plan. Try as you may. Ask Michael Jackson how he arrived to the upper stratosphere of the Heavens against all odds, and then ponder over this verse from the Qur’an:” وما يعلم جنود ربك الا هو”

Now with Hariri Jr. taking Lebanese PMship, we’re waiting to Gamal
taking of Egypt, and completing the cycle of NO change – NO hope,
so typical to Arabs.
.

Amir you are so right so typical but it is funny how Majid thinks that the iranian revolution is from G. it is actually the type of nonsense that i was looking for ansd yes majid does not see jews as people with human rights!Funny majid how you refuse to answer my quesion on hebron maybe it is because i am right the only thing arabs really do to jews is persecute them and if you can’t then liquidate them!for the last 150 years in the middle east this is the case!this is why we fight with all our might majid this is why you can not defeat a people you rasist moron!

And also majid only G. or Allah can judge mickael jackson and only G. can judge the iranain revolution fabrication of man !stop using the name of G. in vain!you are such a looser and i hope you will get another divine victory like you had in 2006 i wish you many divine victories like the one ahmadinejad the rasist just had!But i told we are patient and we will be patient enough for your people to understand that they are fed up of being loosers!We will never give up for eternity majid!

“Funny majid how you refuse to answer my quesion on hebron maybe it is”

Actually I did answer you. But you seem to not have understood. That is the problem with some people. You have to be blunt to get the message across to them. So be it. I pointed out in a previous comment that I find you naive. So do not expect further exchanges.

I will also explain why you are loosers: Firstly look at iran, look at how they treat women look at how they treat minorities jews,zarostrians or sunnis or kurds, hell its better to be a palestinian in israel or west bank and of coarse not gaza they are too busy following the iranian model! Look at the number of drug addicts in iran look how young people in iran struggle just to throw a party look at irans freedom of speach look at irans special forces people that just made devine victory for lebanon look at the president !hell as far i see it the only thing that needs to be done in the middle east is too wait patiently for the people of iran and other countries or regions like south lebanon like gaza or like syria to be fed up of being loosers!This is the key for me to peace and you majid and all the other haters just prove my point!And in my naiveté i will say it again when it comes to my people you can not destroy or liquidate cause we are human just like you majid!

Oh yeah majid it is in your culture to love conspiracy theories!Well i have just one thing to say the biggest conspiracy there is ,is that the regime you so dearly love is conspiring against their own people!!this is why you are a perfect loosers !I agree you are victims ;you are victims to your own stupidity and your own conspiracy theories this is how they manage to keep you in check to perform your little genocide i am talking of my people but in my naivete i say i did not see one hezb fighter in south lebanon in maroun el ras fire on us for too long you know why?caues they were too busy running away or getting killed!i told you don’t believe your own lies!

“the only thing arabs really do to jews is persecute them ”

the opposite is right the only thing zionists really do to Arabs is persecute them.
what is happening in Iran will not effect Syria in any way,if Syria splits from Iran, Egypt and KSA will not support the regime in Syria,and Iranian Regime is strong,the west will not be able to return the Shah,the goverment in Iran is strong enough to prevent the west and Israel from accomplishing their gall.

I agree with Norman,palastinian and not USA who will determine their fate,Bush had no right to do it.

Ford Prefect,

You are of course correct. And it’s almost shocking that so many so-called “analysts” are missing it. In fact, we should try to ask ourselves why, and I think I may have an answer (or at least one possible answer).

In order to truly understand a side to a conflict, be it one close to you, or your rival, one must be capable of separating emotion from rational thinking. In order to empathize (not sympathize), one must put himself in another’s shoes, and look through the other’s eyes at himself, to try to understand the rationale behind his thoughts and actions. Doing this in any objective manner is almost impossible when emotions are involved.

Could it be that these analysts are analyzing through an emotional filter? I would argue there’s a good chance of that. I cannot see how such one-sided views, so limited and inflexible, could be formed without either predisposition or emotional influence that lead to such conclusions.

Of course, the typical antagonists would argue that we “overly-liberal” creatures are simply too weak to NOT become in some fashion supportive of even the worst-of-the-worse. In other words, for this Israeli to actually contemplate a peaceful position for Iran in our region, without it first becoming a democracy or an ally of Israel, I must either be a self-hating Jew, or the equivalent of a make-love-not-war hippie. We are somehow pulled like a magnet to supporting these regimes, without a backbone to fight them till the end.

But do these “analysts” truly run these thoughts through? I doubt it. Do they ask themselves questions like “If this regime goes down, what guarantees do we have that its replacement will be better?”, or “If this regime is isolated, what makes us believe it will be less belligerent, and less intent on acquiring defensive and offensive capabilities?”

And you’re also right about the tendency to NOT live and learn. How many more examples of isolated regimes need to be created, before the “analysts” learn the lesson? Has North Korea become more peaceful? Has it abandoned its nuclear program? Has it become less dangerous, or far more so? And Syria, has the isolation by the U.S. helped detach her from Hezbollah? Has it caused her to seek more “moderate” allies? Has ignoring the Golan issue helped make Israel a safer place?

And then we’re shocked when suddenly a building shows up in the Eastern desert of Syria. Or when Libya voluntarily informs the entire world that it has been actively seeking nuclear technology for years. Or when Americans vacationing in Hawaii are considering returning early because a North Korean missile might be headed their way. We honestly think we’re helping the problem go away, by NOT addressing it.

The only comfort I still derive from this, is knowing that in general only the few, those who often belong to the “overly liberal” minority, are the ones who truly change the future. They’re the inventors, the ones that register the most patents, the greatest scientists and artists, the most successful leaders. They’re the courageous ones, that accepted no “truths”, that never surrendered to common logic, or to views held by the majority. And, dear Ford Prefect, some of us here on SC belong to that minority. If there’s someone out there that can still make a difference, it may very well be us!

majedkhaldoun keep on with your conspiracy theories ;thats how they keep you on check for the jihad,which is actually the little genocide of the jews?but keep this in mind don’t wish too hard cause you never know what might happen if the jews defended themselves right?you guys are really rasist dangerous genocidal psycopaths!and you represent half of lebanon and half of palestine,but like i said maybe the day will come when you will see loosers you are when you follow stupid regimes?like i said israelis are patient.And when it comes to syria this situation of being loosers is very evident 10 percent allaouites 90 percent sunni plus occupation of kurdistan well i guess assad is not a dictator right moron?

majedkhaldoun the answer will be when your peoples wake up smell the coffee and make a change from within,until then you will just be big loosers full of hate and full of stupid mega conspiracy lies to keep all in check like donkeys!

Syria might be waking up to the reality that only force will bring the Golan back,
We should also remember that the tomb of John the Baptist in Damascus , so they might ask for that too, we still might find other areas in Syria they walked on in their way to Palestine , so practically all Syria is theirs , when are we going to wake up , I hope soon,

FROM WND’S JERUSALEM BUREAU
Syrian group threatens ‘force’ against Israel
Warns it may move to capture strategic Golan Heights

——————————————————————————–
Posted: June 28, 2009
7:09 pm Eastern

By Aaron Klein
© 2009 WorldNetDaily

A view of the Golan Heights

JERUSALEM – A Syrian militant group threatened over the weekend to seize the strategic Golan Heights by force if a peace agreement involving the strategic plateau is not reached with Israel.

Israel’s Army Radio reported a group calling itself the Syrian Committee for the Liberation of the Golan on Saturday said it would move to capture the Golan, adding Israel has not shown willingness to achieve peace or to return what they called “Syrian land.”

WND first broke the story in September 2006 of the formation of the Committee for the Liberation of the Golan, quoting Syrian officials stating the group was formed to launch “resistance” against Israeli troop positions and Jewish communities in the Golan Heights.

WND also conducted an in-person interview with a top leader of the Committee.

One month later, a man identified as the leader of the Committee gave an interview to state-run Iranian television.

Amos Yadlin, head of the Israel Defense Forces’ intelligence branch, told the Knesset in October 2006 that Syria was indeed forming a Hezbollah-like group.

The latest threats from the Committee were made in comments over the weekend at the inauguration ceremony attended by Syrian President Bashar Assad for a new communications center in the town of Quneitra, which runs alongside the Syrian border with Israel.

(Story continues below)

In July 2007, Syria for the first time in 30 years opened a strategic border road at Quneitra to civilian traffic in a move some Israeli security officials worry could help facilitate guerrilla attacks against Golani Jewish communities. The road is visible from the Israeli side of the border.

Israel has not been standing idle at recent Syrian rhetoric and military moves.

A WND trip to the Israeli-Syrian border three weeks ago found Israeli tanks stationed alongside the Syrian border as well as a series of massive trenches dug in recent months on the Israeli side.

Also, according to information obtained by WND, Israeli security forces previously arrested two Syrian nationals living in the Golan under suspicion they worked for the Committee for the Liberation of the Golan. Those nationals were sentences in a closed military court several months ago to 3 years in prison. The complete details of the case – fully known to WND – are being held back by Israel’s military censor.

The Jewish Golan

News media accounts routinely billed the Golan as “undisputed Syrian territory” until Israel “captured the region” in 1967. In actuality, the Golan has been out of Damascus’ control for far longer than the 19 years it was within its rule, from 1948 to 1967.

Even when Syria shortly held the Golan, some of it was stolen from Jews. Tens of thousands of acres of farmland on the Golan were purchased by Jews as far back as the late 19th century. The Turks of the Ottoman Empire kicked out some Jews around the turn of the century.

But some of the Golan was still farmed by Jews until 1947, when Syria first became an independent state. Just before that, the territory was transferred back and forth between France, Great Britain and even Turkey, before it became a part of the French Mandate of Syria.

When the French Mandate ended in 1944, the Golan Heights became part of the newly independent state of Syria, which quickly seized land that was being worked by the Palestine Colonization Association and the Jewish Colonization Association. A year later, in 1948, Syria, along with other Arab countries, used the Golan to attack Israel in a war to destroy the newly formed Jewish state.

The Golan, steeped in Jewish history, is connected to the Torah and to the periods of the First and Second Jewish Temples. The Golan Heights was referred to in the Torah as “Bashan;” the word “Golan” apparently derived from the biblical city of “Golan in Bashan.”

The book of Joshua relates how the Golan was assigned to the tribe of Menasheh. Later, during the time of the First Temple, King Solomon appointed three ministers in the region, and the area became contested between the northern Jewish kingdom of Israel and the Aramean kingdom based in Damascus.

The book of Kings relates how King Ahab of Israel defeated Ben-Hadad I of Damascus near the present-day site of Kibbutz Afik in the southern Golan, and the prophet Elisha foretold that King Jehoash of Israel would defeat Ben-Hadad III of Damascus, also near Kibbutz Afik.

The online Jewish Virtual Library has an account of how in the late 6th and 5th centuries B.C., the Golan was settled by Jewish exiles returning from Babylonia, or modern day Iraq. In the mid-2nd century B.C., Judah Maccabee’s grandnephew, the Hasmonean King Alexander Jannai, added the Golan Heights to his kingdom.

The Golan hosted some of the most important houses of Torah study in the years following the Second Temple’s destruction and subsequent Jewish exile; some of Judaism’s most revered ancient rabbis are buried in the territory. The remains of some 25 synagogues from the period between the Jewish revolt and the Islamic conquest in 636 have been excavated. The Golan is also dotted with ancient Jewish villages.

FP,

i agree with you my friend , the sooner the Obama administration and Israel recognize Syria’s position to have a complete peace the sooner that can be achieved , they need Syria’s connections to Hezbollah Hamas , and Iran to have a final settlement ,

Apparently Avi goes to the same school with the same ideology as some in the Arab world go to , he learns that the Arabs are there to get him and the rest of the Jews and suck their blood and some in the Arab world think that the Jews are the blood suckers , they are probably both blood suckers and that is why they have trouble getting an agreement.

Avi , by the way many of the Spanish Jews came to Syria and lived in Aleppo .as equal.

Norman,
I have a feeling that the zionists will actually attack Damascus sometime. I cannot say when. However, fear not and fear none. They seal their fate once they step into the fray. We know all about this long time before this report. And we know exactly what the outcome will be. Just watch out from now on. It’ll be a spectacle to watch.

Avi ;
All what you said about me actually describe you,what I said is the truth.and you are all the bad words you said about me.

Dear Shai,
You are correct, my dear friend, on all counts and it is indeed mind-boggling that policy-makers and analysts somehow miss learning from history. It is like watching The Perfect Storm movie over and over and expecting to see a different, maybe happier, ending.

And yes, most analysis is done through the ever-so-present filter called “emotions” as you correctly pointed out.

But maybe also there is another important reason: the fundamental difference between a culture that emphasizes honor and dignity versus a culture that emphasizes individualism and democracy.

Nothing is wrong with either culture, but the fault lies in each side’s ignorance of the other. That is truly unfortunate.

Peace is not achieved when enemies settle territorial claims, sign a peace treaty, and exchange ambassadors. It happens when the people on each side start to feel the pain and aspirations of the other side.

Dear Nornan,

Indeed, the sooner the Obama administration starts to view that peace must be encompassing and comprehensive, the better. So far, I think the US is falling back on its old bad habits – warming the relations with Syria in the hope of wooing it away from Iran or Madagascar or whatever the enemy-du-jour happens to be.

This process is not only condescending to the Syrian people who are baffled by such a naïveté, but it is also recklessly dangerous – risking lives on both sides of the conflict.

Shai said it best – a small minority of unconventional thinkers often produces the greatest ideas and results. Einstein once remarked that, at the end, minds that create a problem cannot be expected to solve it. A radically different way of thinking, a black swan, is now needed.

I allready told you people it is not israel that has to retreat from the jewish golan this is nonsense they only have to retreat from the syrian side unless you are telling me that no part of the golan is jewish or israeli which means once again you are just rejecting israel!You know our pain in israel is very great and we really hate wars but resistence movments simply don’t scare us cause we know we are correct to defend our rights ,if syria attacks israel they are the ones who will be put in a frame!And norman it is not obama or any peace loving american that will make paece it is between us and the arabs ,and yes israel will remain intransigent up to the time arabs will recognize the jewish state for this is the root of the cinflict and this demand of the israeli people can not be rejected by the arabs for ever and if it is well just don’t accept peace!All the rest i mean the arabs demands which are the results of their war on us can then be negociated!But my guess is that some regimes in the region simply don’t want israel to exist and guess what hezbollah and hamas and syria and iran are only part of them!I wish for them to stop attacking us and to start recognizing us for peace to prevail!

what i am saying is israelis must feel that the arabs have abandoned the idea of liquidating israel for their to be peace;it is also very clear to all from majid’s words or from hezbollahs words or from syrian school education that this is still not the case!Don’t you see all the pain and hatred this is causing!

Is it too much to ask to be recognized or is the arab cause to destroy israel that strong?When are the arab people going to adress this problem?Or is this not a problem or the arab solution?Well i guess your solution has not worked right?So when are you going to adresss this problem?well i know this is when you run out of options like the famous saying:If you can’t beat them then join them?Up to then israel will be patient and israel will defend itself to survive!Wars that will be imosed for us and no israel does not want to damascus but damascus dreams daily of liquidating israel

Avi,
There is a limit of 3-4 “MEANINGFUL” comments per person per day on this site.
Try to put everything you want to write about in one comment and stay away from any provocative statement, you are not in a demonstration, loud voice and bombarding the site with too many comments gets you nowhere but banned.

Really jad,so now you are telling me how to write what not to write and of coarse you want me banned?So typical of anti democratic people!Plus if i am wrong there is nothing meanigfull when i ask that my country my language or my people be recognized!It must not be meaningfull even though it is the root of the conflict!

Avi,

Relax–Jad is not picking on you, these are the rules here. You were saying the same things over and over again. You can only do that so many times each day before it gets really annoying. Go over the archives and try to see what’s the tone that’s customary here, and try to adapt to that.

Peace.

I agree with you and i will stop cause apparently what i am trying to say is more than understood!And i hope jad that it was meaningful!

AVI,

You act like a typical Zionist.
First you bombard, then you occupy,
then you ethnically cleans the inhabitants of this blog,
and then you blame them..!!!

AVI,

this is not commenting.. this is Blitz-Krig..!!
.

But as Syrians, we should understand Avi’s genuine paranoia about safety and security. The Israeli public has been sold a bill of goods full of fear of anything Arab. We can discuss whether this fear is justifiable or not until we are blue in the face, but a solution cannot be found until those fears are understood and appreciated.

FP,
Good luck. You need an awful lot of it.

FP paranoia???So in that case hezbollah kidnapped a plant in 2006 and then threw roses over the border and the ugly zionists attacked!Ah amir a blitz? zionist what?are you really from tel aviv and majid go to hell with your luck!amir if you raelly are from tel aviv how come you don’t understand that zionist means the bad colonizers and that is what is taught in syrian schools!i told you i do not believe in the arab victim stuff or the jewish victim stuff i believe in real peace !

Avi’s response accentuates a severe and sorry case of paranoia.

Well FP everything i am saying is probably not true and there is probably no missiles directed to israel and peace is soon arriving and israel can leave all conquered territories right?And FP you also teach your kids to love the jews as brothers that we are; and from what i heard hezbollah and hamas are disarmiming and the arabs are ready to accept a jewish nation as neighboors and even ahmidenajad believes now that the shoa existed!And i am just a paranoid zionist jew right?

Peace in palastine can only be achieved when the palastinian get back their land and rights, the zionists has no place in this holy land.

majedkhaldoun highlights yet another case of severe paranoia. Anyone else wants to come forward?

Avi,

You live in a house of glass and you keep throwing rocks.

Funny though, if the late 20’th and early 21st century era is to be characterized in history, it will probably be described as the age of hypocrisy and double standards.

You speak of Iran’s treatments of minorities but you live in a country that spends billions to bring few thousands of Ethiopian Jews “home” and then refuse to accept their blood donations in hospitals. Their children, continue to suffer racial discrimination . Then, you ask to be called and treated as a brother, and claim to be a victim of our hatred while ignoring the hatred in your midst to your own and to the others to whom you claim to be a brother .

But I guess, to those of us trying to dig deeper into the cause of your paranoia, all of the above is probably the result of the “superior” educational system that made you the paranoid “lion” you are.

Avi,
You live in a house of glass and you keep throwing rocks.
Funny though, if the late 20’th and early 21st century era is to be characterized in history, it will probably be described as the age of hypocrisy and double standards.

You speak of Iran’s treatments of minorities but you live in a country that spends billions to bring few thousands of Ethiopian Jews “home” and then refuse to accept their blood donations in hospitals. Their children, Continue to suffer racial discrimination . Then, yYou ask to be called a brother, and claim to be a victim of our hatred while ignoring the hatred in your midst to your own and to the others to whom you claim wanting to be a borother . But I guess all of the above is simply the result of your “superior” educational system that made you the paranoid “lion” you have become.

Avi, you live in a house of glass and you keep throwing rocks.
Funny though, if the late 20’th and early 21st century era is to be characterized in history, it will probably be described as the age of hypocrisy and double standards.
You speak of Iran’s treatments of minorities but you live in a country that spends billions to bring few thousands of Ethiopian Jews “home” and then refuse to accept their blood donations in hospitals. Their children, Continue to suffer racial discrimination . Then, You ask to be called a brother, and claim to be a victim of our hatred while ignoring the hatred in your midst to your own and to the others to whom you claim wanting to be a brother . But I guess all of the above is simply the result of your “superior” educational system that made you the paranoid “lion” you have become.

FP,

The only way to decrease the fear of Arabs from Jews and Jews from Arabs is for Israel to have desegregation and affirmative action policy , Like the US .

Somehow the links got mangled in my post above

here ther are

Link 1 : Blood donation http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/312/7027/331

Link 2
racial dsicrimination and walls
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3481887,00.html

Link 3
Discrimination and seaparation
http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2009/02/24/israel-racism-in-the-name-of-religion

Link 4
Education
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909019.html

I guess the links got mangled in posting
Here they are

Link 1 Blood donatioin
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/312/7027/331

Link 2, School discrimination against Ethiopian children

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3481887,00.html

Link 3, Discrimination against others

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2009/02/24/israel-racism-in-the-name-of-religion

Link 4 and racism against arabs href=http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3231156,00.html

And link 5 Israel’s educational system
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909019.html

Ford prfect;
What is paranoia,when someone asks for the palastinian get back their land that they and their parents has lived there for thousands of years? what is paranoia if one ask for people to have their human rights restored to them ,we have seen how Israel with their zionist minds,zionist with evil and murderous mind commit holocaust against palastinian in Gaza and Sabra and Shatila, in Qana and so many other places,all other things ,that makes Israel worse than nazi.
I always said that jews are welcome to live among us in peace and they have the right to practice their religion freely,but to have zionists who think like Avi,who believe in killing palastinian and destroy their homes,and reduce their lives to miserable lives,These are evil and has no right to exist in a holy and sacred land of palastine.

Majedkhaldoun ,there is a country called Israel and no it is not palestinian land and yes the jewish country exists its called human rights and that what you are denying me in your beutiful phrase :”What is paranoia,when someone asks for the palastinian get back their land that they and their parents has lived there for thousands of years? “No you are wrong it is hebrews or jews that have been living there for more than 4000 years and the majority of those 4000 years we were actually the majority !check your history and accept israel’s human rights or expect us jews to defend ourselves when you rasist lying morons attack!or you live peacefully with the jewish nation side by side with palestinians land or this madness will continue and guess what Majedkhaldoun your people will be big loosers!Plus when i was fighting in lebanon i got hurt and an ethiopian gave me his blood and their was no problem,plus the palestinians in the west bank or israel live better than in gaza so i guess why?maybe someone is following the iranian model!the truth is jews are different from arabs and you can’t stand difference it is called rasist plus an ethiopian friend in the army got called rasist names by a palestinian in hebron after he throw rocks,but don’t worry my ethiopîan friend defended himself very well!!!!!

plus it is no secret how much arabs hate black jews!!really everybody in israel knows it!and the proof that israeli society is multicutural and free how many arabs in israel?now how many jews in lebanon or syria,well they all fled due to rasism,by the way my uncle is from aleppo he told me how arabs treated jews there!you guys are really rasist morons!

How come arabs can live in a jewish controlled area(Israel); and very well better that anywhere in the middle east(by the way they total 1.5 million people! and jews can’t live in some arab countries (lebanon;syria,gaza)because or they will be persecuted or liquidated!You guys are the most rasist fascist people there are today on this planet!Are you not ashamed!

you rasist lying morons
Obviously you keep repeating these words, you are not polite,and you do not deserve any respect,we can say bad and evil words just like you are saying,if anyone is moron it is you, and you are so stupid and dum, ,you should be in jail,where you and other criminals live.
what you say about jewish live in palastine,is partialy true only few thousands of them,but the majority of palastine was for 4000 years ,is and was the land for Arab palastinians,so what you are saying is a lie.
The other lie is that we hate african jews , this pure lie.
If Moses is alive today he will be ashamed of people like you, and yes zionism is racism.

Once in syria there were jews, but, they had jew written on their ID they could only live in certain neighboorhoods and sometimes they were beaten their houses burnt and their women sometimes raped!this was very regular and the jews were very scared!similar to todays jews in yemen!This my uncle told me not to hate arabs but to tell to my children and to their children the story of my family!yes you are rasist morons and yes you deserve to be called such because of what you say majedkhaldoun and not because of the ways you treat minorities in syria and yes we are proud today to be free in israel and we will defend it with all our might!and again i ask are you not ashamed??I dare any syrian to answer this!

Avi, you got Syria confused with Germany.

Majedkhaldoun, nothing is wrong with asking for the Palestinians’ right of return. What is wrong is the notion that Zionists have no place in the Holyland. Who is the visa officer who decided this?

Norman, Amen!

No FP this is the bare truth it was the truth for iraqi jews it was the truth for yemini jews today also!!just look at al jazeera on youtube,when you refuse to accept the truth of the jews living in arabic countries you will understand maybe better the conflict and not only germany; believe me; germany had many friends in syria during the second world war!And no norman only israelis decide who comes in and out for the moment it iscalled self defense and when you deny the history of jewis who come from arab states you deny the history of jews in germany also!But still i got no syrian response because they do not know the history of jews in syria they only care about themselves!

AVI,

To live in an apartheid-like state and refer to others as racists is rather ironic.

What reaction do you expect from the Arab world given the modern history of Israel?

1-800-flowers?

and what did you give us jews before “Israel” flowers?at least it is allready good that you admit the genocide of my people Eshani?But apparently you still are rasists and genocidal nothing has changed plus israel an apartheid state there are 1.5 million arabs inside israel proper that must be really bad apartheid!Our people never did to you what you did to us?and yes we will fight for our respect every time you attack us you rasists!and yes the truth is different from your propaganda lies!

Where did I discuss the genocide of your people you genious?

“at least it is allready good that you admit the genocide of my people Eshani?” it was a question ,and i dare you to answer it and i am talking about the jews of Aleppo the jews of Damas and the jews of Beirut,the ones that survived got saved by some christian lebanese??but this i am sure you don’t want to know right geuious? Actually syrians have their own resposability in creating Israel just like germany!Or maybe it was the so called flowers you were talking about eshani?And do i have to speak about hebron the massacre of 1929 and the mufti of palestine that was really a great friend of hitler and his last solution actually none of you are victims you are oppresors this is how i see you!

“What is wrong is the notion that Zionists have no place in the Holyland.”

“Einstein once remarked that, at the end, minds that create a problem cannot be expected to solve it”

As you may notice, dear FP, the above quotes are your words. Since you seem to appreciate Einstein’s genius and insight, may be you should inquire more about the person. I recall reading a biography of his some time ago. I remember reading he was offered by the zionists to move to Palestine and they even tried to lure him by offering him the honorary post of Presidency. You know what? He was indeed a genius not just because of his scientific achievements. He chose to be a real free Jew than a fake zionist slave and he turned down the offer.

Do you think, as an Arab, who has witnessed this saga unfolding in front of your eyes during the last 60 years with all its tragedies can now decipher this man’s behavior and match his foresight?
You know what else? It is obvious he didn’t have your advantage of witnessing the outcome of zionism, and yet he made the right choice! Amazing!!

Majid Einstein had israeli citizeship and he helped a lot of universties open in israel, also he left some valuable knowledge on the nuclear so when the french helped us to build dimona reactor in the 50’s they were surprised by the knowledge we had!and by the way he did actually refuse presidency but not because he was not a zionist or didn’t love israel but because he said he was not suited and did not know well enough the country again majid your rasist lies and propaganda to keep you in check with the little genocide of my people !rasist!your continous lies that by anymeans are good to prove that jews have no right to israel!thank you for proving my point.

There is a place for Jewish People in the holy land, as well as in Syria, but there should be no place for any exclusive ideology or practice anywhere, be it South Africa, Syria, Israel, or here in the US.

Post Zionist Israeli citizens do struggle in Israel. These conscientious people, who woke up to the facts of the birth of their state and realized the pain it caused others and the oddity of their fear based nationalism are looking both outward and inward. As avi demonstrated very well, the brain washing has reached an unparalleled fantastic level in Israel akin to the legendary 1984 book. Just consider his laughable attempt to silence our fellow commentator AP. I had a mental image of AP shaking his head in disbelief finding someone being not only more royalist than the king, but in fact deranged in manners the respectable AP himself find unacceptable. It is a good thing for our AP and for others to see their donations at work. Since I can not stop my tax dollars from going to Israel, I want, at least to make sure that it goes towards psychological counseling and towards better educational curricula. I am counting on AP and Yossi’s support in this. 🙂 after all we have a shared interest in that.

Given the colorful intellectual life in Israel, I would tend, against my better judgement to classify avi as “Bin ladenite Zionist”. Like all ben-ladenites, he paints a romantic picture of the ideal, his imagery is full of lions, blood sacrifices, twisted heroism, machismo discourse, fighting and war. It is an image of a Utopia that is only achievable through purity be it religious, or racial. Real history becomes irrelevant and made-up myths, legends and exaggerations rule the day. There is only a place for absolutism where negotiation serves only one purpose, the surrender of the enemy. And relativism, middle ground, or co-existence are only conditioned on the mythical purity. We have our own avis, who want to die like lions even if their glorious death comes at the cost of burning the entire forest, what a megalomania.

I concur that Syria will not (probably should not) relax its ties with Iran in the short term future. The outcome is too uncertain and the speculation on how the unrest might alter negotiations with Israel is idle conjecture. It is time to take a deep breath and just wait. The situation in Iran is still at the tipping point. The outcome is not predictable at present.

There is a place for Jewish People in the holy land, as well as in Syria, but there should be no place for any exclusive ideology or practice anywhere, be it South Africa, Syria, Israel, or here in the US.

Just consider his laughable attempt to silence our fellow commentator AP. I had a mental image of AP shaking his head in disbelief finding someone being not only more royalist than the king, but in fact deranged in manners the respectable AP himself find unacceptable. It is a good thing for our AP and for others to see their donations at work. Since I can not stop my tax dollars from going to Israel, I want, at least to make sure that it goes towards psychological counseling and towards better educational curricula. I am counting on AP and Yossi’s support in this.

OTW,

cc: Avi

Thank you for the term “respectable AP”, I hope you weren’t being sarcastic. And yes, your “mental image” was accurate.

So now you have it, the far Left, the far Right, and the Center (moi) all represented at the same time here on SC. Let me just say that even though that I sense a lot of emotion from Avi, and though I share his concerns, I am ready to sit and THINK of solutions. No one has tried to “silence” me. I just didn’t see an attempt at dialogue.

I take issue with your term “exclusive ideology”. All ideologies are permitted in Israel: communist, capitalist, Jewish, Islamic, Christian, atheist, homosexual, even anti-Zionism. There is no law against espousing any of these ideologies in public or private, and none are exclusive.

The only thing that makes Israel a “Jewish State” is the Law of Return, and the holidays. To date, this is what the majority of Israelis want. Many countries as well as the Palestinians have similar laws.

As you might imagine, the term “Post Zionism” gets on my nerves. Right now, Zionism is alive and well.

“As you might imagine, the term “Post Zionism” gets on my nerves.

Amazing! Sometimes I feel I have to agree with someone who can only see his state of mind. But, of course that is the whole issue. His state of mind is zionism. You get an A on this. So-called Post-zionism is a marketing tool for those who want to get away with stealing whatever they stole already and get an applaud from the dispossessed. So they are all die-hard zionists usurpers of the land. Post-zionism does not exist. So do not worry.

What is Law of Return if it is not execlusivity? Palestinians have the Right of Return to pre-1948 Palestine, they also have a right for compensation from zionist thieves and an apology. How does that work with a zionist or even a so-called post-zionist?

OTW,

I think it’s a little bit too easy to dismiss Avi as “paranoid”. What Avi recognizes correctly is that his way of life as he knows it is in danger. Like it or not Avi has grown in a Jewish country with Jewish symbols of state, holidays, culture, etc. Like most people, he identifies with the identity he was brought up on and looks wearily at things that can ruin his world. Because his state hasn’t been accepted by its neighbors as legitimate (for whatever reasons), Avi is not paranoid, just panicky.

What people like Avi sense, quite correctly, is that the two-state peace negotiations are a sham. Beyond being willfully or just naively blind about how the Israeli side is insincere in these negotiations, they are actually very aware of the Palestinian insincerity and of the illegitimacy of the Palestinian negotiators. The bone of contention boils down to this: the logic of the two-state solution is the logic of a divorce. It’s a recognition that the two peoples are not interested in living together in the same state, at least not in the foreseeable future. Thus, like in all partition plans that preceded it, the assumptions of both Israel and the international community (but not of the Arabs) is that one state would be “Jewish” and the other would be “Arab” (that doesn’t preclude the possibility of minorities in either of these states). Obviously, the desire of Israelis to live in a “Jewish” state is in conflict with the Palestinians desire to exercise the right of return, however it is not clear that the refugee problem is the sole reason for the rejection of Israel. Many claim that you simply cannot accept a non-predominantly-Arab entity in your midst. Both sides are playing along so-as not to appear as the ones that are rejecting “peace”, with “peace” here being the vision that Americans have which we should all be very happy with, but in reality nobody is.

So… tension in Israel is building up. Something will have to give. I have no doubt in my mind that some of the Israeli desire to go to war with Iran is coming from a belief that under the cover of an Armageddon, they will be able to finish what they didn’t get to finish in 48 and 67. On the Palestinian side, things are more relaxed. They can just wait and perfunctorily participate in the peace process, each time saying “no” to proposals and never coming with a counter proposal. In the mean time Israelis are stewing up in their existential fears and world opinion is getting ready to endorse the one-state solution. What is there not to like about it?

What is there not to like about it?

Yossi,

I agree. Like my father used to say, “If it’s not broke, don’t fix it”!

I agree. Like my father used to say, “If it’s not broke, don’t fix it”!

But Akbar it is already broken. Israel is very high on the ranking list of failed states. Only a bit less failed than Syria and Egypt are. If Israel is not fixed it will be soon so broken that it can’t be fixed.

Yossi
With all due respect, I disagree with half of what you wrote, you weren’t being fair magnifying the Israelis fear of the Palestinians and Arabs without showing the other side of the conflict and the bare truth that Palestinians are under the Israelis occupation and it’s not only me the Syrian who is saying that, the whole world including the Americans agree on this fact.
The Palestinians are the only people on earth who are under an ugly occupation, and the sad truth is that the majority of the Israelis are treating them in the most disgusting way possible that we as human can’t and won’t understand or accept regardless of our race or religion and it makes us really mad about what we see. The Palestinians are not a myth and they deserve to live in peace and above all FREE and PROUD human being.
Avi likes characters need not to be justified but the opposite. Radicals, racists, full of hate people should be stand against wherever we see them and not to justify any of their paranoia because they won’t understand that as we do, they will take it as a support for their cause.
The irony about that character is that he managed to absorb the worst of Jews and Arabs sides by being Paranoid, Obnoxious, Rude, Lost and Proud of all of that… 🙂

“The irony I saw about that character is that he managed to absorb the worst of Jews and Arabs sides by being Paranoid, Obnoxious, Rude, Lost and Proud of all of that…”

JAD,
It is better to use the word zionist instead of Jew. Arabs don’t have problems with Jews and Judaism per se. When a Jew or even non-Jew becomes a zionist then he/she becomes an Arab/Palestinian enemy. You also cannot equate Arabs with the Jews (zionists) as in your statement. Can you equate murdered victims (Palestinians) with murderers (zionists)? It doesn’t make sense.

Jad,

I guess my point was kind of subtle, or rather weak. I was trying to depict the situation for an average Israeli, without making a moral judgement. To accentuate my point, if you are on a death row, then your fear of immenent death is not a paranoia, and it doesn’t matter for that question whether you are innocent or guilty.

Of course the occupation is immoral, ugly and barbaric. Of course that the right of return is founded in international law and UN council resolutions, but if Avi were to grant these, what would he be left with? His entire world would be ruined. So, you invent the myths that you need to believe in to keep you in a safe place, from a mental perspective.

Well, well, well…
Within five comments a snake changes skin so easily.
I wonder if SH’s comment has anything to do with it.
Myth or failed state, wouldn’t that be the same? So why not assimilate? It should be easy for a snake skilled at skin-shedding!! And paranoia would disappear at the same time.
Win win.

Majid,

I really don’t know what I did to warrant your repeated personal attacks on me. If you believe that my positions were inconsistent in some way, please enlighten me, I’d love to hear what you have to say on the topic, as long as you can watch your manners.

And with regards to assimilation, sure, let me take you up on that. What does it require? Spell it out so I can evaluate it. That’s exactly the type of honest requirement-setting that people in Israel need. Then they can think rationally whether they should go for it or go out in a bang.

Majid,
I state many times on here that I’m an Anti-Zionist, Yossi, Shai and AP knows that it’s not a secret and it’s a belief that i wont change period. I’m a pro-Palestinians and I’m with their cause of having their freedom but that is not going to be a problem for Shai nor Yossi, they know and understand that and we keep respect each other for our personal differences.
I used what I meant because Zionist is a political movement and not all Israelis are Zionist and not all of them are bad, there are many of them who are fighting the occupation smarter than the Palestinians are doing, some Israelis are closer to me and you in their morals against the occupation than a hardcore Zionist who support everything ugly in the occupation.
Shai is a peace activist, his political ideas are not of my business, Yossi is the same, I do respect them equally for what they do and I do respect them as human first before thinking of the political party they belong to. I can’t ask them to do more than what they are doing that’s the most they can offer, if they pass this line they are betraying their own country, so I appreciate any effort they do and I respect their decisions.
Here are some sites founded and run by Israelis, should I consider those people Zionist and refuse to communicate with them too or should I be smart about my goal and try to open my eyes and look beyond their personal issues and respect their hard work and their fight for freedom from the within? you decide:
http://www.icahd.org/eng/
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/
http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp
http://draykcab.wordpress.com/
and many more, so you tell me now, should I call all of them Zionists?

Majid,
Could you please be less emotional and more respectful for people on here.
We all here for one reason, to communicate and understand each other points and not in competition.
So I personally ask you to stop attacking other respected men on here namely Yossi and Shai without a reason, it takes the whole conversation down the drain.
Please!

Majid,

I really don’t know what I did to warrant your repeated personal attacks on me. If you believe that my positions were inconsistent in some way, please enlighten me, I’d love to hear what you have to say on the topic, as long as you can watch your manners.

And with regards to assimilation, sure, let me take you up on that. What does it require? Spell it out so I can evaluate it. That’s exactly the type of honest requirement-setting that people in Israel need. Then they can think rationally whether they should go for it or go out in a bang.

Yossi,
Thank you very much for the explanation.
I do understand your point, I wasn’t trying to argue at all, I just wanted to challenge what you wrote to get some more clarity, that’s all.

Jad,

And I have no problem clarifying when needed… Sheesh I’m not *that* sensitive. Just don’t call me animal names 🙂

JAD,
What you said is fine and full of reason. But you also have to be aware when someone who claims to be a peacenik but rejects flatly the right of return (which he and shai did some time ago in discussions with me) then that raises questions in my head right away about his claim to peace activism. Even in his last comment (64) he dodges the issue by laying it on UN resolutions and justifying its rejection due to the avi’s. He doesn’t come out straight and spell his own opinion on the issue. What about the mythical Law of Return? He seems to be OK with that. Why should a Russian, an Ethiopian, and an American be given the right to settle in the land at the expense of its rightful owner? There are double standards here. To me anyone who believes or condones this so-called Law of Return automatically classifies as a zionist. Do you have any doubts about that?

His comment 64 is clearly biased in favor of swallowing the whole of Palestine in order to satisfy the avi’s.

“In the mean time Israelis are stewing up in their existential fears and world opinion is getting ready to endorse the one-state solution. What is there not to like about it?”

He is savoring and enjoying the idea of the theft. I know you objected to him, and I totally agree with what you said. But I still fail to see the difference between him and the avi’s. To me they’re the same. I do not see how they can be of any help.

If as you said, they cannot offer more help to the cause and they are genuine with their desires, then the best course of action for them is to keep silent and avoid providing such misguided analyses which would only indicate their preferences to certain agendas. Such analyses only aim to circumvent the right of self determination of the dispossessed which has already been recognized by the whole world. By such effort, they are aiming to take it away from them.

Having said all this, I do admit that there are quite few (or even many) who would be entitled to be called Jews as we Arabs understand the term. But we need to be vigilant and capable of making the distinction. That’s my whole point.

Majid,
I understand every word you wrote in your comment and I would fully agree with you if we are real politician or news reporter with some specific and clear agenda in our heads which is not the case here, we all are politically amateur who are not even politician in real life. We are some kind of average Abouahmad’s chit chatting about some news and we all are politically incorrect, so to ask for us to be very clear and not to contradict what we write couple weeks ago is a bit difficult don’t you think?

OK JAD I got your point. But we’re also involved in a sort of group effort which may cascade. So we still have to be careful. Do not forget the issue of normalization. We’re all stepping on that by conducting such exchanges even though it is on individual level. But, what kind of peace they achieved with Jordan and Egypt? They only got the cold peace. They cannot get the real peace from us without addressing the problem. Real peace happens on the individual level. We cannot put the cart before the horse. Just keep that in mind. And please do not take it as if I’m being overbearing.

YOSSI,
When you go to the US you become American and melt in the melting pot. That is assimilation.

Jews who want to come to the Arab World become Arabs. They still remain Jews but they cannot be zionists. They learn the language and abide by the general customs. They have to prove their good conduct by abandoning and disavowing zionism and their militaristic enterprise and servitude to foreign powers. That is assimilation in the Arab World.

Majid @71,

I wish you were courteous enough to direct your criticism directly at me, but you are not. Here is what I have to say to *you*, Mr. Majid.

My ancestors initiated this conflict by colonizing Israel. Since then both sides have exacerbated the conflict and made it intractable. I am not optimistic about any sort of peaceful solution. I wish that the Israelis and Palestinians would find a formula that works for both of them and that they both view as fair. To the extent that the sides are just BS’ing each other, that’s just a recipe for horrendous violence down the road, as we have seen after Oslo.

What possible solutions are there? There’s the two-state solution, and the one-state solution. And when I refer to the one-state solution I’m talking about one democratic country from the river to the sea. This is mostly a position supported by Palestinians, so your accusation that this amounts to “gobbling up” land is either dishonest or comes from lack of knowledge of the subject matter. I suggest you check out Ali Abu-Nimah’s talks and book on the subject.

The two-state solution, that Israel, the PA, and the international community are supposedly committed to, is based, as I said, on the logic of a divorce of the peoples where each gets its own state in which they are constituting a majority and have the freedom to define the country as they wish. Well how can a Jewish state be Jewish if it has a Palestinian majority, which is what would happen if Palestinians are allowed to exercise their right of return, into the Jewish state? So this, as stipulated, doesn’t work. Something needs to change in the ingredients of the deal to make it work. The only way this could work is if the Palestinians would give up their right to go back into Israel. Now why would they agree to that? I think that by default, they won’t, and they shouldn’t. The only way they could be persuaded is by swapping the right of return for land. Then, if a significant amount of land (i.e., inside 48 borders) is offered, then it could be argued that the returning Palestinians would be settled there, in their “original land” (loosely speaking). In other words, if the land needs to support an equal number of Palestinians and Jews, or a larger number of Palestinians, and we’re playing by the dichotomic rules of the Jewish vs. Palestinians state, then the area of the Jewish state cannot be 78% of the land, leaving the Palestinians with 22%. The Jewish land will have to be significantly smaller. This is one possible way to reach an agreement, but the Israelis won’t accept it, and the Palestinian side doesn’t offer it. Why? Because neither one really believes in the two-state solution.

Then there is the one-state solution. This would be, so we are to believe, a democratic country of all its citizens. This country will recognize the rights of the Palestinians and the Jews to live in equality in the land. It will recognize the right of the Palestinians to return, and it will also allow Jews (and maybe everybody) under religious persecution to take refuge. These are all ideas espoused by Palestinians such as Ali Abu-Nimah. Since the Palestinians will be a majority in the country, and since no official Palestinian has ever explained what this country might look like, the Jews fear it will be a place of intolerance in which they will be persecuted, or a dictatorship like most Arab countries. They view this option as an invitation to suicide. What would it take to make this work? What is required is a democratic Palestinian leader of the stature of Mandela who would explain how such a country could be created, would assuage Jews’ fears and would rally Palestinians and Jews around him. But, alas, nobody rises to the challenge.

Here is a scenario of Palestinian return that I oppose: suppose all the Palestinian refugees arm themselves and say that they should be admitted into the country, in order to kill all the Jews there. That would be just to the Palestinian refugees, but it wouldn’t be just to the people who will be about to be slaughtered. That, I oppose. I wonder if you would find fault in that?

I hope this clarifies my personal preferences (not that they are consequential in any way).

Yossi

My friend, I also am an opponent of the two states solution. But being a Syrian, I have no say about that, and I would not assume the right of my Palestinian brother to decide on their own course of action. If their decision is to strive for a two states solution, then i would do my best to ensure that their state is viable and that means, among other things, opposing any plan of continuing Israeli hegemony over their affairs, and rejection of anything less than what they decide to agree upon. I would however explain what I perceive as the danger of this solution.

Personally, though, I see in the two states solution a frantic attempt to delay the inevitable, which is a truly multi-ethnic society that must be re-constructed at great pains. The two state solution is a solution that caters to intolerance and mistrust, and to a mutual notion of purity that I have come to detest. Yet, it is also a solution that is justified on the Palestinians side by the draconian occupation and by the continuing theft of their land and of the vitality of their livelihood for the sake of few new immigrants enjoying the fruits of the Zionist dream under the protection of a state, which according to AP, whose voracity on the subject i have no reason to challenge, is a state that tolerates a broad and wide rainbow of ideologies. Yet that state, can not bring itself, people and government to recognize the dispossession and the great human tragedy that continues to unfold as a result of its creation and of its guiding political philosophy. A state that continues, cabinet after another, and opinion pole after another, to display a level of racism that is at odds not only with its claim to democracy, but with the history of the Jewish people.

To Israelis and to most Jewish people, opposing Zionism may seem racist. But I know for sure that to a reasonable majority, Arab opponents of Zionism have not a hint of antisemitism or of a racist agenda. To them the matter is very simple, it is the dispossession of their brothers and sisters to establish a state that puts being a Jew above everything else.

Now, if i am to agree, and I do, that you, being born in Israel, or Shai and his precious daughters are entitled to live there happy and secure, i must also think of my nieces and nephew, whose Palestinian father’s eyes tear every time he speaks of his ancestral homeland. Without a right to return, literally to his own village, which was destroyed, his existence is deemed less worthy than the existence of someone whose connection to the land is also an emotional construct that is at least two thousand years further removed than his own. How is that not exclusive and not racist. Can avi explain that to him or to his children. He did not lose a war, nor did his father, a school teacher, who was a teenager then.

I have been struggling with the question whether Israel’s existence can be detached from Zionism? I do not know the answer, but in my attempts to find one, I have tried set aside being an Arab, and to put myself in the shoes of a 19th and early to mid 20th century secular Jewish person living in Europe. Hard as it is, Zionism, would be appealing, especially if I am told that accomplishing the dream would cause no one harm since the land would be empty . Edward Said, vilified by both sides, tried to impart such an exercise when he argued that empathy is a precursor to a reasoned dialog. However, if I am to see myself as a modern secular Jew of the 21st century, the idea would be much less appealing, especially knowing that the land was never empty, nor it is now, and knowing that the “purity” component of that dream runs counter to my modern intellectual standards of human rights. I think of all people, you get my drift.

As for what would avi be left with, i think he would be left with a great opportunity to build something wonderful. Something that transcends the narrow definition of who we are into what we are. My nieces are waiting to partake in such an enterprise, so are countless numbers of my Palestinian friends, none of them wants to push anyone into the sea, all they want is a recognition of their humanity, their rights, and of the injustices their father and their grandparents suffered.

AP,
By the way, I was not sarcastic. I meant what I said. However, you know that the mental image I spoke of resulted in a menacing smile recognizing the Irony and Chutzpa of the whole situation.

Majid @73,

Yeah well I think the Israelis really appreciate their independence (and also their military, and foreign alliances). In the current situation they would flatly decline. This can change either by making their lives more miserable, or by making assimilation more attractive. Now if you go back to what I wrote about the one-state solution, I’m basically proposing the latter (what else would I propose…). I hope you’d also agree that showing that you can expand your ranks by your virtues, rather than by coercion, will be a great victory of the spirit.

OTW,

Thank you for your comment of immense thoughtfulness. I couldn’t find a word I disagreed with. A large part of my appreciation of America is that it lets me and my kids grow in a pluralistic society that includes both Jews and Arabs. I find it ironic that Seattle has a Jewish-Arab summer camp for kids, yet in Israel such things are rare. In again reminds me of the possibilities that are present in our latitude as expats who have seen other configurations of society.

Now my million $ question to you would be this: what you’re saying makes so much sense, how come we haven’t seen Arafat of Abu Mazen say the exact same things? In what way would it weaken their hands?

I have two theories about this.

The first, which you alluded to, is that it seems a longer term battle that will not alleviate the problem of the occupation in the short term. I actually think that this is not a correct calculation, because the sides cannot agree on a two-state solution anyway.

The second, which I dread, is that the Palestinian leadership knows that it cannot vouch for the safety of the Jews in a unified state and therefore, out of responsibility, it doesn’t offer this proposal.

What do you think?

(I’m going to sleep now and will check again tomorrow…)

OTW,

I concur with Yossi, it was a good post, and a fair description of your feelings on the matter.

You said:

If their decision is to strive for a two states solution, then i would do my best to ensure that their state is viable and that means, among other things, opposing any plan of continuing Israeli hegemony over their affairs, and rejection of anything less than what they decide to agree upon.

Your Palestinian brethren HAVE decided on a “two state solution”, there is NO question about. Obama has a lot on his plate, and I can’t believe he is going to send George Mitchell all over the world in order to find out that the Palestinians want something different than a two state solution.

Now, I don’t know what Hamas wants. I guess my point is, if the Palestinians can’t decide what they want after 60 years then they may set themselves up for another loss, especially if a second War of Independence ensues. It may be decision making time again, like it was for Arafat. Again, what can the Palestinians live with?

On your dream of a One State Solution, I share your dream of Jews and Arabs living together in One State: Palestinians and Jews could have preferential immigration status, Muslim and Jewish holidays are enforced, Arabic and Hebrew are equally used in government documents, etc. But that is a utopia that doesn’t mesh with reality.

I’m sorry to say, Israel has been yearning for independence for 2000 years, and the Arabs/Palestinians have been fighting against this. Unfortunately, I don’t think humans have evolved to the point where they can discuss and resolve these issues before resorting to war and violence. They couldn’t do it in 1948, and I don’t think they can do it now.

OTW,

I join Yossi’s (and AP’s) impression with your comment. I too agree with every word of it.

Unlike Yossi, however, I am not sure that a two-state solution isn’t truly sought by at least the majority on each side. It is a fact that two former-Likud prime ministers in Israel, Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert, were elected into power specifically over their crystal-clear agenda of withdrawing from the West Bank and Gaza, in order for a Palestinian state to be created. Both men spelled it out well before their elections, during their campaigning, and after getting elected. There is a reasonable probability (I believe) that had Sharon not fallen ill, he might have continued the withdrawal also from the West Bank. Olmert was too weak, misguided, and preferred killing Lebanese and Gazan citizens over pulling Jews out of illegal settlements. Still, fact remains that most Israelis elected these two leaders.

I may be in agreement with Yossi, that a two-state solution seems very unlikely at this stage. This is precisely why I so strongly support the Syrian-track. Sooner or later we must leave the Golan. It isn’t ours, and we’ve been holding on to it illegally for over 42 years. It is by far the easiest conflict to resolve, and it could have a “spillover” effect which might create a better environment of trust for all sides. I do not wish for it to, in any way whatsoever, undermine the long overdue freedom of the Palestinian people and right to their own nation. I simple see it as a first-step that should be taken. I think anyone “gambling” on the Palestinian track first is not reading the reality on the ground correctly, and will again be disappointed.

As for the Right of Return, I absolutely agree with anyone that sees this as double-standard and, to be quite honest, as a racist policy. I wish my country could be an Israel without the “Jewish State” part. In fact, I long for that day. Not only for the sake of all those non-Jews who indeed suffered and are still suffering the consequences of this racism, but also for my sake and for the sake of my children, who deserve to live in a nation that is truly free to all. Having said that, I do not see how a fair Right of Return could be feasible or accepted in the near future (say 10-15 years). I cannot see how 51% of Israelis of today will agree to have a full right of return to any or all Palestinian refugees to their old homes and villages inside Israel. I hope this will change one day. As you’ll recall me say so many times before, I dream of a UME (United Middle East) in my lifetime, where Jews, Christians, and Muslims life in peace together, under one “nation” or union of nations.

I truly believe that your nephews, OTW, have as much a right to live in Israel/Palestine as I do. To be completely honest, they probably have a greater-right. But as you know, most Israelis cannot even contemplate this now, let alone utter the words. At least a generation of peace (even cold-peace) must pass, I believe, before Israelis can begin to shed their paranoia and fear of the Arabs. This is unfortunately the reality, that the bully suffers from a psychosis which the victim cannot fix, except through time. And, since I also do not see a Mandela-type leader rising out of the Palestinian streets, or Israel’s for that matter, I don’t think we’re talking a year or two, or five.

My fear, is that if we do not reach some peaceful agreement soon (such as with Syria), that this pressure-cooker that is Israel and our region, will eventually explode yet again in a horrific regional war. And that this time, tens if not hundreds of thousands will die. Some might claim that this is precisely what is needed, in order to move forward. I hope they’re wrong. I hope we can at least achieve some solutions, which will undoubtedly be deemed unfair to some sides (perhaps to all sides), but that will at least put a final end to Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Golan Heights. But I also understand any Palestinian that dismisses any solution which does not include a full right-of-return.

If i am 2 make a 1 state solution does that mean with hamas?does hamas want jews livilg in their one state solution?hamas is 50 percent of palestine?How am i as ani= israeli going to live with these guys that want my demise??

Plus zionism as my liberation movement from the oppressed societies that jews lived in (europe and the arab world)you want us to give up???ok would arabs give up islam??

And as for a land without a people ,it was i think the rhetoric was used for the land the jewish national movement bought or owned at the time legally!!!and yes zionism calls for peace with its arab neighboors if we are not talking about the little minority of strong extremists ‘zionists’ we have in our tiny country!I think i do not agree on the defenition you give to zionism at all.