This is the plan:

Now we’re exhausting Obama with futile “peace” plans with the west-bank Arabs.

In a year or two, we’ll do the same with Syria.
Time passes quickly, and before we noticed, oops.. it’s 2012 and bye bye Obama.
.

AMIR IN TEL AVIV said:

This is the plan:

Now we’re exhausting Obama with futile “peace” plans with the west-bank Arabs.

In a year or two, we’ll do the same with Syria.
Time passes quickly, and before we noticed, oops.. it’s 2012 and bye bye Obama.

AMIR is right no one lasts for ever even Israel.

Israel had to openly humiliate the US as a show of its power. Given Israel’s strategic domination of the US political system and the ZPC control over mass media and their enormous wealth, a Zionist-controlled administration, like Obama’s, would have to capitulate. Israeli and US Zionist pressure forced the American leaders to subordinate their international image and national self-respect and accept the unlimited expansion of Jews-only settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, no matter how this might undermine US standing in the region and jeopardize US troops.

By ‘whipping’ the Obama Administration into line, Israel has set the stage for the launching of its top priority: Forcing a direct US military confrontation with Iran in Israel’s strategic interests. It is clear that the entire ZPC will stand with Israel as it promotes its militarist agenda against Iran, regardless of the consequences to the United States.

It has been proven beyond a doubt by the recent events, that the ZPC has the ultimate say with the Obama Administration, against the advice of top US military officials and against the basic interests of the American people.

In plain English, we are a people colonized and directed by a small, extremist and militarist ‘ally’ which operates through domestic proxies, who, under any other circumstance, would be openly denounced as traitors. Can the ZPC be defeated? They are the “most powerful lobby in Washington”, to whom Presidents, Administration officials, Generals and Congress people must submit or risk having their careers ruined and being ousted from public office.

Meanwhile,outside of the United States, the international community openly despises Israel as a brutal, racist colonial state, a war criminal and chronic violator of human rights and international law. The Middle East Quartet, made up of the United States, the European Union, Russia and the United Nations, has condemned Israel’s plan to build another 1,600 homes exclusively for Jewish extremist settlers in Arab East Jerusalem.

The Quartet demanded “the speedy creation of a Palestinian state and the end to provocative actions”. But the ‘Quartet’ is powerless to stop Israeli plans. The Presidents of the Major American Jewish Organizations tell their followers that global “anti-Semitism” motivates the ‘Quartet’. The huge AIPAC “Hail Israel” Conference in Washington D.C. in late March celebrated the triumph of unfettered Israeli expansionism.

Nevertheless, some Israelis are beginning to express unease. After their initial euphoria over Netanyahu’s slap-down of Biden and face-up to Clinton, there is growing fear of Israeli being ‘weaned’ away from the American treasury and losing their unfettered access to the US latest military technology.

A poll published on March 19 in Yedroth Ahronoth, one of Israel’s biggest dailies, revealed that 46% of their readers responded that the government should freeze settlement building in East Jerusalem, much to the chagrin of the US Israel Firsters, who might in other circumstances, have labeled these Jews anti-Semites.

Fissures in the Zionist monolith are beginning to appear. These would deepen if and when the American public realizes that Israel’s’ dispossession of Palestinians is raising havoc with American lives and with American interests in a vital part of the world populated by 1.5 billion Muslim.

As more issues arise, the critical choice between following the lead of the ZPC in pledging unconditional allegiance to Israel and enduring its provocations and humiliations, or standing up for the dignity, basic interests and integrity of America, will have to be made.

More fissures will appear and AIPAC and other members of the ZPC will be seen for what they are: Swaggering bullies acting on behalf of a foreign power.

Ghat is suddenly concerned about humiliating the US NewZ

Israel had to openly humiliate the US as a show of its power.

Ghat,

How often do Arab and Muslim states “humiliate” the US? Please include Syria in your compilation.

One of the most infamous examples is from the 1990s and involves President Clinton’s Secretary of State, Warren Christopher, and the Syria’s then-dictator Hafez Assad. Assad would constantly humiliate Christopher by making him wait hours–once when he was sitting in a plane on an airport runway–to see him. That was how Assad “hit back” at America.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/24/iran-foreign-policy-strategy-opinions-contributors-dictaplomacy.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/britain-in-push-to-bring-syria-in-from-the-cold-1015857.html?action=Popup

SC aught to be interested in what Elliot Abrams, Podhoretz’s son in law thinks of foolish Obama.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/terms-endearment

Amir,

“In a year or two, we’ll do the same with Syria. Time passes quickly, and before we noticed, oops.. it’s 2012 and bye bye Obama.”

There are a few other options you might be missing, in your “time’s-on-Israel’s-side-always” theory. For instance:

1) “In a year or two, we’ll do another military operation in the region. Time passes quickly, and before we noticed, oops… it’s another 1973-style war and bye bye Safe Israel.”

or

2) “In a year or two, we’ll do the same with the U.S. Time passes quickly, and before we noticed, oops… it’s 2012 and bye bye American military and financial support of Israel.”

I’m sure your recently-voiced levels of arrogance (the type reminiscent of the 1967-73 years) make it difficult for you to seriously consider these “other options”. It is so much easier to exercise wishful thinking, isn’t it?

I still want to hear your (and Akbar’s) theory on what happens next with the Palestinians. And by “next”, I don’t mean tomorrow morning, I mean if they refuse to budge. What if, in fact, THEY decide to drag their feet for the next, say, 10-20 years? How do you (and Akbar) plan to pass the next 20 years? What will your children inherit from you?

I’m sure you have a plan tucked away somewhere. What is it?

This writer believes, based on what he learned at Georgetown and on what his son learned at Oxford, that the land of Palestine will go back to its rightful owners, i.e. the Palestinian Arabs,

http://www.alarabiya.net/views/2010/04/09/105354.html

Josh,

Have you seen Ian Black’s piece about Netanyahu’s withdrawal from the nuclear talks?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/09/netanyahu-nuclear-no-show-pressure

And an interesting comment on Christopher Phillips’ blog linking this to Syria’s WMD:

http://cjophillips.wordpress.com/2010/04/09/an-opportunity-for-syria-to-take-the-moral-high-ground-on-wmd/

What do you think?

Good NewZ

Steve,

Ian Black stated that BB’s cancellation was a “victory for Arab pressure”. Further, Christopher Phillips believes “an opportunity for Syria to take the moral high ground on WMD” is a result of this cancellation.

Once again, the Arabs, and specifically Syria, are showing great strength and resolve in the Middle East. It’s almost time to pop the cork and celebrate.

Shai,

The starting point of our dear comrades in the Israeli left, and yours, is that: we have to be in a hurry, because there’s a big trouble in the near and distant future. And if we don’t rush to reach a “deal”, we might “miss the train”.

What’s in the near future menu, according to you?? only disasters: A new ’73 war; Arabs unite against us; new young recruits to muqawama due to frustration; America disengages from Israel; boycott war blood fire and tears.

And so I tell you shwaye shwaye… None of the disasters-list you promise to us, is expected. Israel is stronger and the Arabs are weaker. Israel is united as never before. The Arabs will never unite behind their corrupt present-day leaders, and if those leaders are replaced by Islamist, then the “peace deal” we (allegedly) signed, is useless, and will be immediately annihilated by the new-comer-Islamists.

I say, let the Arabs simmer. They have to decide what’s good for them, because they’re not happy with what they have now, and this has nothing to do with Israel.
A storm is coming to stir the Arab world. It will be unwise to do any thing before this storm settles.
Time is on our side, not theirs. As we say in Hebrew: Haste is diabolic.
.

Amir, Shai,

I thought Amir’s response was excellent. You see Shai, you’re peddling fears and an image of weakness. The people on Amir’s side promote an image of strength. The odds of both of yours “bad” and “good” scenarios are unknown. So people simply have to decide, do we want to feel like winners or like losers? And Shai, you are proposing to people to believe that they are losers. There is no question about it, that your message is not marketable—just look at public opinion.

What is totally missing from this discussion, of course, is questions of morality, and the character of the country you’d want to live in. In that battle too, the “Amirs” have won. Every passing year will see Israel tumbling further steps down in all indices of democracy and freedom.

Obama will not help with his pressure. The settlers will not be removed from the territories, there is no political support for that. Israel *will not* bow to American pressure—and in many ways it makes me happy. What? Israel is a big American aircraft carrier? No, it needs to be independent. So… the Israelis have chosen a “romantic” path that has some allure of conviction and honor. I think they will fall flat on their faces but you can’t stop this bull anymore.

It’s a done deal. Now it’s just wait and see.

No Yossi, It’s time to stop the rampage of the Oslo bull. After 17 years, it is time to try some less romantic, more realistic approach to our existence here.

When you talk about settlements, do you include Tal Abib mukhtala in your map of settlements ?

http://www.paldf.net/forum/showthread.php?t=585172
.

Amir,

The stage is all yours, let’s see what your leaders will do.

The question about Tel Aviv is a little bit too silly to answer in more than a single word: “no”.

Yossi,

I’m not attempting to depict Israel as weak, or as “losers” that have to get a good deal while they still can, because I don’t believe in it myself. I know how strong we are, and know that precisely because of that strength we are quite likely here-to-stay.

The Left and Right in Israel have changed places. Today, the Right is the arrogant one. But the weird thing is, that it has also become schizophrenic. On the one hand, it feels time is on our side because the Arabs are weak, and only getting weaker. On the other hand, it yells “Existential Threat” each time a militant group like Hezbollah or Hamas throws a few rockets across our border. It yells “Existential Threat” each time Ahmadinejad denies the Holocaust. The Right, for all practical purposes, feels Israel is the victim. It’s a schizophrenic state of both Winner and Loser mentality, all at the same time.

What I’m trying to tell my friends, both on the Right and on the Left, is that Israel would be wise to take up the Arab World on its offer for Peace, regardless of strength or weakness. I’m not getting into the moral issues, because few people can truly discuss that. You’ll get counter-arguments like “Well, is it moral that Jews can’t even have their OWN state?” So I try to argue by suggesting that from purely Israel’s point-of-view, with each day that passes, our interests are hurt. That’s why we shouldn’t wait.

I’m not afraid of the demographic-threat like most Israelis are. But that’s fine – if they’re afraid of one day losing the Jewish majority in Israel, don’t they think we should do something about that? If Israelis are allowed to live and build and develop in the Territories, don’t they understand that de facto, this is part of Israel and, therefore, that the “other residents” are also part of our country? The Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics has already issued a report saying that, for the first time in Israel’s history, more non-Jews live under Israeli rule than Jews. When I did the math, I concluded that had to include Gaza. But fine, is this what most Israelis want? I claim not. So if they feel it is the Palestinians that holding us back from a two-state solution (which I’m now starting to argue would be in their interest), then why let them decide the borders of our country? Why can’t we do that ourselves? Can only the Palestinians decide whether there is a majority Jewish population in Israel? At the rate Israel and its government is going, the answer is clearly Yes.

As for the 1973 revisited scenario, I’m yelling this not to get Israel to make concessions, to lose something, to surrender. I’m saying it, first and foremost, because I feel (and many journalists have voiced this concern) that Israeli arrogance is again at an all-time high, that we are dangerously over-unified (yes, what a strange notion), and that our euphoria is extremely reminiscent of the 6 years prior to 1973. Sadat himself said, in an interview shortly after the 73 war, that “Israel couldn’t be allowed to feel that they are lords of Arab land forever…” (paraphrased).

Now I’m not fearful of “another 1973”, just because it’ll be another regional war. If I was told that every 10 years (on average), Israel was doomed to go to war where it would lose 2,500 of its soldiers, I would still remain here to protect my country, and to try to change that fate. But what SHOULD concern us all, are two things: First, that another 1973 would look very different. If we simply take the Lebanon 2006 case, where a small militant group (not even a nation) held a million-plus citizens of Israel underground for 34 days, and now let’s extrapolate to an all-out war with Hezbollah, Hamas, AND Syria and Iran, I think we can imagine what kind of war that might be. I think we SHOULD imagine what it would be. Second, and this is really the BIGGEST reason I’m so concerned with our arrogance and euphoria, I doubt there’s a single Israel on the (rational) Right, that would suggest that Israel would be “just the same” after such a war. I don’t think I have one friend from the Right, who didn’t say to may “So after such a war, the world would force us to make Peace… just like with Egypt…”!

In other words, most Israelis, when they actually think about it, are likely to agree that if Israel and Syria go to war, we are MORE LIKELY to be forced into an agreement, than we are now! So those who say “Let’s Wait”, are either gambling that there will be no 1973-revisited (a dangerous and foolish gamble to make, in my mind), or are plainly ready to pay any price, preferring not to seem like THEY gave up on the Golan, but rather that the world forced us to do so. For this reason, I’m equally angry at “the world” (our major allies), for not saving us this war, and jumping straight to 3rd base.

I realized a few years ago that Israelis cannot understand a “cut-your-losses” argument, because they’re intoxicated with power and don’t see any losses here (not present or future). My Doomsday scenario (all-out war getting out of control) is meant more for the Arab side, than for the Israeli one.

Unfortunately, I don’t see Morality as subject to discussion amongst any of the sides. A drunk man is too numb to feel.

Amir,

“None of the disasters-list you promise to us, is expected. Israel is stronger and the Arabs are weaker. Israel is united as never before.”

Have you learned nothing from 1973? Aren’t those wise words of yours taken, almost verbatim, from Moshe Dayan himself, just hours before the October war?

Your sheer arrogance is what worries me, not the Great Arab Armies. That fact that you feel justified to do anything, to say anything, because “surely the Arabs won’t attack.. they’re so weak… so disunited…” Well, history shows that both Egypt and Syria attacked, despite being weaker! Can we learn something from this? Nah, of course not.

I say withdraw from the Golan, not because there’ll be war if you don’t. But because there’ll be war if you don’t AND THEN you’ll withdraw! You know what, if I could be promised that Israel could keep the Golan forever, if we just paid a tiny price of 2,500 soldiers every few decades, I’d say “Yalla, let’s do it baby.” I love the Golan, it’s beautiful. I’m willing to pay a price for staying there. But you and I both know, that if there was another all-out war in the region, Israel would be forced to give back the Golan. Do you deny this?

So now who’s playing dumb? Whose ego is holding himself back from taking up a Syria that has offered peace for the past decade, like it hasn’t for the previous 50 years?

Please spare us your Omniscience. You so knowingly say “and if those leaders are replaced by Islamist, then the “peace deal” we (allegedly) signed, is useless, and will be immediately annihilated by the new-comer-Islamists.” What sheer nonsense. Where do you get that crap from? Has it ever happened somewhere relevant? Did it happen in Egypt? In Jordan? You wouldn’t have made peace with either of them, based on this idiotic fear? You would have gone to another 5 wars with Egypt, just not to let some Muslim Brotherhood get a chance to “annihilate” a peace agreement? What nonsense.

“A storm is coming to stir the Arab world. It will be unwise to do any thing before this storm settles.”

And you’re suggesting I’M the one forecasting disasters?

Yossi – I agree with you that the bull has left the station.

I agree that the morality question is largely lost on Israel at this time. They have convinced themselves that they are surrounded by bloodthirsty Arabs. Of course there is a lot of blood out there in the Arab World, which is a mess. Many Arabs hate Israel, as a number of commentators on SC do little to hide.

Despite the mess and hatred, I do believe peace is possible and that the hatred will recede with time and a proper treaty, which Arabs want fairly universally.

Egypt is an example of how peace works. Today, the national interests of both countries are aligned. We see this the way both work together on the Gaza security risk. Egyptians dislike Israelis, perhaps more than any other Arabs, not because hate is in their DNA, but because of the on-going persecution of the Palestinians. They feal guilt at their “treason,” if you will. Treason is, of course, the wrong word, but it is the insult still used against the Egyptians by the Syrians and felt by many Arabs. I imagine there is a healthy dose of guilt in most Egyptians because their Palestinian brothers are eating kaka and they did abandon the fight – I think wisely. Egypt was sinking. All the same, it is not easy to face up to one’s own weakness. The necessity of Sadat’s decision to accept the Camp David Accords, doesn’t mitigate the suffering of brothers.

Yes, there is a sense of brotherhood among Arabs even if they are woefully divided. Many Israelis (and Arabs) pooh-pooh Arabism and point out that no such thing as an Arab people exist, neither does Arab unity, and so on. All of this has much truth to it. But the Jews are the first to recognize the anger that is stirred up when fellow Jews are persecuted – even far off Jews. It does not take much imagination to understand how Arabs feel, when reading about Palestinians losing their land and homes. Just sit in a Arab household and watch al-Jazeera for five minutes. I know that right wing Israelis will say that this is manufactured sympathy, etc., but this is a distinction without a difference. The sympathy their – so is the constant persecution of the Palestinians thanks to settlements and expansion.

Anyway – the bull has left the station. The question now – from an American point of view – is whether America will stick by its Israeli bull.

I don’t think it will. Even the considerable capability of the Israeli Lobby, sympathy of Christians for their “big brothers” the Jews, and all the many other reasons Americans have for supporting Israel will not stave off a new relationship from taking shape.

The common morality and culture between the US and Israel – which has been used so effectively by Israelis and Americans to create a common interest – underscoring Israel’s uniqueness as the “only democracy only the Middle East” — will erode quickly as both non-Jewish and Jewish Americans turn their noses up at Israel’s apartheid regime on the West Bank and inhuman treatment of Gaza. There is no end in sight for this behaviour without the two state solution – which does seem to be dead.

Israel will increasingly become a liability to the US on national security as well as morality. America’s invasion of two countries in the Middle East has guaranteed that. it is only surprising how long it has taken Americans to recognize it.

In conclusion, I do believe the US will distance itself from Israel and will have to stop aligning its Middle East policy so closely with Israel’s. This process will take a long time. Institutionally, the two countries have become deeply enmeshed.

Picking Apart the “Co-director of Peace Studies” Professor Josh

They have convinced themselves that they are surrounded by bloodthirsty Arabs.

Gee, those silly Israelis are so paranoid! And certainly the Americans with 9-11 and the weekly terror cell busts have been duped by the paranoid Jewish Lobby;)

Of course there is a lot of blood out there in the Arab World, which is a mess.

You don’t say? of course, is must be Israel’s fault. Let’s get the the hard Left like Jimmy Carter has his friends on the hard Right like Buchanan and Paul to make “nice-nice” with al-Queda and Ahmadinejad. Should be love at first sight…

Many Arabs hate Israel, as many commentators on SC don’t hide.

Nor co-directors of “peace studies”…

Despite the mess and hatred, I do believe peace is possible and the hatred will recede with time and a proper treaty, which Arabs really want

Sure Professor Josh. Please provide a list of Arab organizations like Peace Now, Gush Shalom, Bat-Shalom, B-Tselem, Yesh Gvul, Tikkun, J-Street, etc?

http://yellowcakewalk.net/israeli_peace_movement.html

http://peace.mennolink.org/articles/israelpeacegroups.html

Egypt is an example of how peace works.the national interests of both countries are aligned in working against the Gaza security risk for both countries.

Egypt is an example of how a people are led by autocratic “president-for-life”. Does this ring any bell? Did the Egyptian people all of a sudden learn to make peace with Israel? Did Egyptian “peace organizations” pressure Sadat to make peace?

The “peace” you’re talking about is really a military agreement, not a peace agreement.

Egyptians dislike Israelis, perhaps more than any other Arabs, not because hate is in the DNA, but because of the on-going persecution of the Palestinians, which underlines Egyptian “treason,” if you will.

Wrong. Egyptians and Arabs hate Israel because the Arab dictators and their government-controlled media promote this hatred, refine it and use it just like their oil wells.

Treason is, of course, the wrong word, but it is the insult still used against the Egyptians by the Syrians, and I imagine there is a healthy dose of guilt in most Egyptians because their Palestinian brothers are eating kaka and they did abandon the fight – I think wisely.

If the Israeli Arabs are “eating kaka”, the Egyptians are simply not eating at all. Suffice to say, Israeli Arabs are enjoying more freedom and economic growth that Egyptians. And, BTW, you didn’t discuss the Egyptian government’s role in preventing Gazans from entering Egypt.

But the Jews are the first to recognize the anger that is stirred up when fellow Jews are persecuted – even far off Jews.

Yes, Jews are demonstrating daily for Jewish rights in Iran and an end to anti-semitism in Sweden or the UK. Right.

No, Jews put don’t waste their money on lost causes, they put their money on Israel instead.

It does not take much imagination to understand how Arabs feel, when reading about Palestinians losing their land and homes. Just sit in a Arab household and watch al-Jazeera for five minutes. I know that right wing Israelis will say that this is manufactured sympathy, etc., but this is a distinction without a difference.

No, “right wing Israelis” understand that al-Jazeera has an agenda just like the government-controlled media. Israeli-Arab life in Israel probably isn’t covered.

Anyway – the bull has left the station. The question now – from an American point of view – is whether America will stick by its Israeli bull.

Of course, an anti-Israel, pro-Syrian professor knows the answer but poses the question anyway.

I don’t think it will, despite the considerable power and capabilities of the Israeli Lobby, sympathy of Christians for their “big brothers” the Jews, and all the many other reasons Americans have supported the expansion and defense of Israel.

When Israel withdraws from the Sinai, Gaza and areas along the Jordan border, we have “Co-Directors of Peace Studies” who claim this to be “EXPANSION”.

For this reason, Israel has stopped giving, and is now waiting for the real peace pay-back the Arabs claim they want so much.

The common morality and culture – which has been used so effectively by Israelis and Americans to create a common interest between the two – underscoring Israel’s uniqueness as the “only democracy only the Middle East” will be eroded quickly as it more and more Americans (and particularly American Jews) turn their noses up at Israel’s apartheid regime on the West Bank and inhuman treatment of Gaza.

The “morality” issue is alive and well among Jews and Israel as long as anti-semites like Ahmadinejad and his puppets in Hezbollah, Hamas and his Arab allies continue to threaten Israel. Fortunately, the American press is free and Americans can discern the truth from Leftist dogma and the Arab propaganda.

There is no end in sight without the two state solution – which does seem to be dead.

The only thing that’s dead is Arab moderation and vision.

Israel will increasingly become a liability to the US on national security.

In your dreams.

America’s invasion of two countries in the Middle East has guaranteed that. it is only surprising how long it has taken Americans to recognize it.

America recognizes what Israel has to put up with.

In conclusion, I do believe the US will distance itself from Israel and will have to stop aligning its Middle East policy so closely with Israel’s.

Again, wishful thinking. Aside from Israel, America has two competing interests: buying cheap oil and selling weapons. If Israel weren’t around Iran, Arab thugocracies, and radical Islam jihadists wouldn’t sit quietly as Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan have shown.

This process will take a long time. Institutionally, the two countries have become deeply enmeshed.

Deeply enmeshed at fighting the Middle East’s greatest export: terrorism…

Shai,

You keep on banging on my head with the 5 kilo hammer of “arrogance”
and “omnisomething”. I really don’t feel arrogant, and I don’t believe that this is the right adjective (arrogant) to describe some 70% of Israelis. Fearful and disillusioned, would be more proper adjectives.

You totally ignore the Arab share for this deadlock. I’m glad to see that Joshua (of all) did start to touch this point of Arab responsibility to this tectonic shift in Israeli politics.

The question you should ask yourself is, why now? why now some 70% of Jewish Israelis are being “arrogant”, 25% undecided / Kadima, and around 4-5% Shais and Yossis ? Why, and why now?

I believe it’s a PTSD to the 2nd Intifada. This is the source of my personal “arrogance”, at least.

Just like today, some 30 years after the Lebanon invasion, and 10 years after the withdrawal from Lebanon, there’s a torrent of movies about the Israeli PTSD Lebanon-trauma, Israelis today are in a process of digestion of the events that followed the Barak-Arafat meeting in 2000.

The worst thing one can do while negotiating, is a breach in trust.
This is what the WB and Gaza Arabs did, and now, all of us pay the price.

And BTW, Olmert is still waiting to an answer from Abbas, regarding the outrageous offer he made to him (with maps and with numbers).
What else do you need to acknowledge, that the Arabs don’t want a state next to Israel, but rather a state instead of Israel ?
.

The Arabs hate israel because it is an illegal colony and alien to the region. The Arabs on the other hand are not blood thirsty. But the israelis are, as we’ve clearly seen from the so-called 350 rabbi ‘petition’ presented to a US ambassador. I do not know how far we, as Arabs, can go in distinguishing between racist israeli or zionist and a Jew in general. If so many rabbis can easily express such hatred, where are the real ‘good’ Jews who deny and condemn these so-called rabbis? There may be some or many ‘good’ Jews, but I haven’t heard a single Jew coming out from the closet and openly condemning Israel and Zionism or telling these rabbis they do not speak for them. I have heard about and read for thousands of Muslims who condemn Bin Laden and his likes. I am not talking about the few Israelis who appear on SC and provide all sorts of apologetic b**t which shows very clearly as a means to achieve the same purpose as Zionism would like to achieve but through sweet talking to Arabs. Most often these same so-called ‘good’ Israelis have one and only one thing in mind – the perpetuation of the status quo so that they would continue to live from the proceeds of the crimes of Zionism.

AP’s diatribe in #16 above is a prime exmple of the zionists favorite claim “INNOCENCE”.

This selective amnesia is necessary for a people who ceaselessly proclaim their “innocence” of any provocative acts, as any one can note in their writings,

Inferences in the US media along with the pro. of AIPAC and other dual loyalty Americans agree with the betting in Tel Aviv that Barak Obama is a one termer and come 1012 will be replaced with either Congresswoman Jane Harman (D) from California and at one time accused of being a go between Congress and AIPAC Or Congresswoman Deborah Wasserman-Schultz (D) from Florida who is on record as stating to one and all:

“I want to be able to maximize my ability to advance the interests of
Israel, and there are different organizations doing that. AIPAC is one of them,
and I’m committed to them. J Street has worthy goals as well. The more
advocates for Israel in America, the better.”

The least and most that can be said is that the Zionists and dual loyalties Americans will not go silently into the night. The next election might end up being decided on whose for israel or who is just for America period.

Shai,

You’re walking a very tight rope. I have a problem for example reconciling these two statements:

“I’m not attempting to depict Israel as weak, or as “losers” that have to get a good deal while they still can,..”
“So I try to argue by suggesting that from purely Israel’s point-of-view, with each day that passes, our interests are hurt. That’s why we shouldn’t wait.”

I guess what you are saying is that it would be BETTER for Israel to strike a deal now, but there is no urgency. Well if that’s the case, and factoring all the risks and losses involved in ceding territory and natural resources, then a very rational decision would be to say, let’s wait a little longer.

With respect to the Palestinians, if an Israeli doesn’t have a problem with the occupation from a moral perspective, then what’s wrong with believing that “one day” when the Palestinians “deserve it” they will get their own Mickey Mouse state, and in the meanwhile nothing should be done? Perhaps if we waited, we could force Jordan to accept them as citizens? Or maybe in the mayham of a perfect “Islamic Storm” will provide cover for Nakba II. That’s what Amir means we he says haste is from the devil.

Similarly with respect to the 73 war, Israelis will tell you that Syria or Iran will come out losing and Israel will not have to give up the Golan. You say “if there was another all-out war in the region, Israel would be forced to give back the Golan. Do you deny this?” of course this is deniable. We’ve HAD the 73 war already and Israel didn’t withdraw from the Golan…

The rationalizations that Amir is bringing (“Islamic Storm”) are immaterial here. What is imporant here is the mental position that he is assuming. It’s supported by long-lasting memes such as:

“Not a grain of sand [shall we give up]” (Begin)
“If you have to die, die with your boots on” (Iron Maiden :-))
The legend of Honi The Circle Drawer “I shall not move from this circle drawn in the sand, until God does XYZ…”

A few months ago he said something like: even if the Arabs will occupy Israel and will kill each and every Jew there, it will still be our Jewish land for ever! Well how can you argue with that. This is an argument on a completely different level of debate then the ones you’re using.

The fact that you need so many words to explain to Amir where he’s wrong, already means you have lost the battle, because it’s all about emotion. This is why I believe that a discussion about the moral position of Israel is much simpler and more powerful, especially when it comes to the Palestian question. The moral argument also has clear concrete ramifications, as can be seen by the cost Israel has to pay due to its loss of legitimacy over the last few years.

Shai, the fact is that in spite of you very well articulated reasoning, you can’t move Amir one inch towards trusting the Arabs. That has also been my experience, with other people I talked to about this topic. We may be doing just enough to quiet our concsience, but the writing is on the wall, the bull has left the station as Josh said…

Amir,

Ever since Khartoum, Israel could tell the world what you’re saying today – The Arabs don’t want Peace. They don’t want to recognize Israel. But what you, and another 70% of Israelis don’t realize, is that this is no longer the situation. None of our allies buy it. Certainly not since 2002. Since then, on 3 separate Arab Summits, every single Arab state (without exception), confirmed and reconfirmed, their readiness to accept Israel and to make Peace with us. Recently, in Libya, they reaffirmed this yet again, for the 4th time. Their requirement – not the return to the 1947 borders, not the absolute return of all Palestinian refugees to what is now Israel, but rather the 1967 borders, and a “just solution to the refugee problem, that is acceptable TO ALL SIDES (Israel being one of those sides).”

So what MORE do you want? For decades Israel waited for this. For half our history we desperately awaited the first Arab state to be ready to recognize us. We were ready to pay greatly for this – huge territory, the one and only real strategic depth Israel ever had – the Sinai – for this recognition. And we did. Egypt was the worst of Israel’s enemies. It killed more Israelis than all your Arafats, Nasrallahs, and Hanniyehs put together! Sadat had no “proven record of peace” prior to 1979. He had quite the opposite. And yet, his statements were enough. We were ready to take the chance. And today we know that chance was worth it. The alternative – another few wars with Egypt – was certainly worse than even this “cold peace” we enjoy with Egypt today.

So you can continue exercising self-deception all you want, you can continue telling yourself and your buddies that the Arabs “don’t really want Peace”, until you’re blue in the face. And in the meantime, while you await their capitulation, you can continue supporting Israel’s arrogant stance, ongoing Occupation, and bully-of-the-neighborhood role.

But don’t expect the Arabs to want Peace more tomorrow than they do today. Also don’t expect them to sit idly by. Because if YOU were them, you wouldn’t. You would do something. Even if you’re the weaker one.

Yossi my friend,

I believe that Israel is strong. I also believe that most Israelis fear having a majority non-Jewish population. Therefore, DESPITE Israel’s strength, I think those who fear the latter should do everything they can to bring about a two-state solution. Many of them actually agree (AP, for instance). But most of them are too impotent to do anything about it. They’re waiting for the Palestinians to come crawling for a state. They’re not ready to define Israel’s borders on their own. So, fine. Personally, I’m not in a hurry to create two states. Let the Likud explain to its voters 10 years from now why Israel is treated like a South Africa, also by our closest allies.

I think we must separate the Syrian/Lebanese case from the Palestinian one. I’ve argued this exhaustively in the past, so I won’t go on about it once more. But from purely Israel’s point-of-view, I do believe there is an opportunity with Syria that hasn’t existed for long, which must be taken advantage of, before Syria loses hope and selects the path of 1973 (together with Iran, Hezbollah, and Hamas). We won’t lose such a war (because we’re strong), but we will lose thousands if not tens of thousands of our soldiers and citizens, large parts of many of our cities will be destroyed, and we’ll still end up giving back the same land.

No, I do not accept your comparison of Syria in 1973 to Syria of today. The reason Israel was not forced to give back the Golan, was because Syria was not talking about Peace. If you’ll remember, Israel was also not forced to give back the Sinai after 1973. It was, for all practical purposes, after 1977. I can very easily see a situation whereby our allies force us to give back the Golan, after an all-out war. I don’t need to be the Creative Director for Syria, but I’m sure you and most readers on SC can create this scenario without much effort.

I don’t buy for a second that we have “risks involved” in ceding territory and natural resources that aren’t ours to begin with. That NO NATION IN THIS WORLD recognizes as ours. I see only risks, in continuing to hold on to it.

Yossi, I’m not really arguing with Amir. I’m trying to put a mirror in front of his face, to just show him his nonsense and, recently, his unlimited arrogance. I’m not trying to convince him that he’s wrong, I’m simply pointing at others, leaders he today supports, who changed decades later. The funny thing is, that I bet it’d be far easier to change Akbar than it would Amir. AP understands the moral issue, and seems open to “good surprises” (Hamas willing to talk to Israel, Assad welcoming Israeli journalists, etc.) Amir is like Dado in 1973 – he’ll suspect a Syrian jet landing in Ben-Gurion to be full of Commandos ready to bullet-spray Bibi, Lieberman, and Ayalon on the tarmac.

Yossi, the moral discussion can’t take place until Israel sobers up. You can’t expect Amir, who is so obviously intoxicated with our power, to be able to feel what you’re talking about. Anyone that justifies the killing of 1,300 Palestinians, or 1,500 Lebanese, has already left the moral-realm. All we can hope for, is to convert 20%-25% of those 70%, using Sharon’s method – the Demographic Threat. This is the only reason he changed. You think for a minute he cared about morality?

Finally, I do want to say one thing about “clearing our conscience”. With each comment I write on SC, I actually don’t clear my conscience, I add to it. Because the more I discuss the issues, the more I hear the response of the Arab side, the more troubled I become. I think if I did what most Israelis do, bury my head in the sand, I’d feel a hell of a lot better. But part of our responsibility, as citizens of Israel, as people who care about the future of our children and of theirs, is to make our opinions heard. Let no one in the future, distant or near, say “No one was saying this…” Let no one suggest Israel was fully-united during these days. And, most importantly perhaps, even the biggest of revolutions started with a small call for action. I never feared or felt ashamed of belonging to an extreme minority. As Jews, we should know that feeling well enough.

Shai, Yossi, Ghat, Joshua:

Joshua said: “Despite the mess and hatred, I do believe peace is possible and that the hatred will recede with time and a proper treaty, which Arabs want fairly universally.”

With all due respect, can you please explain what you mean with time? Did you mean until such time the Arabs mend their differences, until the corruption subsides, and more importantly until the U.S. stops playing Dirty Harry in the region, then peace is possible? If so, you are going to wait a long, long time.

Further Joshua said; “I don’t think it will.” Referring to whether America will stick to Israel. There is no morality, what morality? It is all about American interst and geo-political control of the area, isn’t it? What about the money? You can’t omit that from the equation! Most people are manipulated and moved by money. Lastly, you can’t yank out the “EXCLUSIVE homeland” from any American Jew’s mindset, regardless of how liberal, moral minded s/he is. So, no American Jew will ever take the morale high ground and say enough. The very few who do are labelled self-hating Jews and have really no effective power.

Ghat said: “Inferences in the US media along with the pro. of AIPAC and other dual loyalty Americans…”

It is not “interferences'”, but factually “total control” of 90% of the media, the other 10% is alternative news, blog, forum such as SC. No major news network dared show how graphic Gaza’s onslaught really was. One had to go to You Tube to see the truth from amateur clips.

Yossi, Shai: While I agree with your respective arguments, imagine for one minute, seriously let your imagination flow :), that the situation is reversed: the Arabs control the banks, the media, the U.S. Congress, Hollywood, etc… all in tandem support for Arab States in M.E. through massive donations tax-free. This is what the majority of Arabs know and feel is taken place towards their foe – Israel since the balfour declaration. Fast forward to today’s Isreal, when you are that fat, you are arrogant (rings a bell: Shai) and the only way to negotiate in such situation is to garnish enough skinny sticks and bundle them together which brings us back to my original note: without some kind of unified Arab front, peace will not likely come.

So now Shai, you place AP to my left? I’m not sure Akbar will be delighted to hear this from you…
I’m on my way now to Ben-Gurion Airport, to greet Hamas and the president of Syria. Please, tell me when are they due to land exactly, because I have work tomorrow morning, And I don’t want to be late.

Don’t preach to me about morals, Yossi. Jews created one or two or many more moral guidelines, for mankind to follow.
I recommend to you and to Shai to read this incredible book “Democratic values in the Hebrew Bible” by Amnon Shapira:

http://library.gordon.ac.il/F?func=direct&doc_number=000092000current_base=GCL01

[ Just for an example: Jewish morality commended the well being of domestic and wild animals. In times when in Roman circuses, they used to unleash animals against animals, slaves against slaves and animals against slaves, just for entertainment. You will learn many things about the morals and humanistic values of your people in that book ].

Morality isn’t more important than life. The appropriate order would be: sacredness of life, then security, then continuation of the Jewish community, and after all those: morality.

In my eyes, self-hate is more immoral than hate. A hateful person can turn into moral person, but a self-hater’s sight is so fogged and blurred, that his return to reality is doubtful.
.

Husam,

The fact that you and I are here means that Peace is possible. And it will come, I promise you, because there is no alternative.

Yossi,

See Amir’s comment #24 to understand why you cannot discuss morality with most Israelis today. Wait till they sober up… then it will be possible. I haven’t lost hope here either.

Shai:

I am here to learn and read various current issues about Syria and the M.E. It is very heart warming to see Israelis like yourself here. But I am realist, while we can come to common terms and bridge our differences, we are a tiny minority of bloggers.

The movers and shakers have a vested special interest, while the fire keeps burning, either for their personal gain or to further their idealogy. The few peace loving activist are just prop to show the world “look we are free”. You and I know: the reality is much different than what what they want us to believe.

If it was just up to me and you, we would playing football together long time ago.

P.S. Is it true that in Jewish doctrine, Amir’s interpretation of security coming before morality is correct? If so, perhaps this explains the way Israel is securing itself at “all cost”. But, how can you protect animals and have no regard and kill fellow humans? I am lost.

The Arabs hate israel because it is an illegal colony and alien to the region.

Al Masri,

Thanks. I’ll bring that up at the next “Peace Process” photo op and J-Street cafe meeting;)

Actually, your opinion and as well as the rejectionist Arab states, provides ample reason to ignore you and your Leftist apologists. Those with common sense stand with Israel and “morality”.

AP

AKBAR PALACE said:

Al Masri,

Thanks. I’ll bring that up at the next “Peace Process” photo op and J-Street cafe meeting;)

All pages of outstanding debate between Shai, Yossi, and Amir this is the only phrase you managed to hang on to, I really am not impressed this time, and I mean it. You make daniel pipes proud.

Shai
I agree with Yossi on the moral issue. You also speak the same when you argue that you do not want to hang on to land and resources that are not yours. France could have easily continued the occupation of Algeria for many more years, it lost the moral war internally.

Yossi
At the same time, is it possible that Amir’s stance now, as a representative of the position of 70% of Israeli society, is also a reflexive reaction to the erosion of Israel’s international legitimacy. I simply wonder,

ALL
As I was writing my response to Yossi, it just occurred to me that when someone says this is the position of 70% of Israeli society, does the 100% of those surveyed include Israeli Arabs, most likely not. Which means that when we argue about 70% of Israeli society, we must adjust these numbers to a lower level (may be 56%). Otherwise, we are denying Israeli Arabs, but wait a minute, whats new in that ???!!!

Prof. Josh,

I thought your analysis was accurate, but your prediction of the future of US-Israel relationship is not the most plausible one.

One thing for sure: support for Israel is very popular, the American people loves Israel, and this is confirmed time and again. They also, in general, don’t like Arab countries, especially those that are declaratively not aligned with the US. The more Christian people become, the more they will identify with Israel. Furthermore, when they have to choose between Israel and the Palestinians, or the Syrians, or the Iranians, it’s an easy choice to make, based on their cultural background and the characteristics of the regime. It will take a lot of time before Israel is viewed as a less moral country, than the other ones I mentioned. It will always be possible to marshal the arguments about dictatorships, suppression of minorities, gays and women, political arrests and executions etc. etc. (I could go on forever). Thus, the loss of democratic character in Israel will not affect Israel’s standing too badly in American public opinion. In this race, we just need to run faster than the guy next to us (the Arabs)… Erosion of freedoms in Israel will only affect the Palestinians and lefties like me, who bemoan what’s going on. But both the Palestinians and the lefties in Israel are insignificant. The high influence of Jewish and other pro-Israeli-government money on the government and media will also continue.

Second, in terms of national security, it would be the most disastrous thing for the US to do, to let its most declaratively loyal ally, hang dry. This will demonstrate to the rest of the US allies in the region, all of them working out of self-preservation interests, that the US is not the “mafia boss” you can depend on for life once you’ve mixed blood together. And so, the US can only try to “discipline” but not “excommunicate” Israel. However, Israel can put up a strong resistance, as we currently see.

Here is a good article about the current Israeli soscity:

http://original.antiwar.com/hacohen/2010/04/09/israel-a-new-decade/

Israel, a New Decade

by Ran HaCohen, April 10, 2010

I turn on the television just before dinner. Prime-time. An Israeli series: “The Pilots’ Wives” (“Meet the Women behind Our Heroes”, said the promo), interrupted occasionally by a commercial depicting a soldier missing his mother’s soup (“disclaimer: the actor is not a soldier”). After the series, a short public service broadcast showing a group of young men, each in turn boasting his military service, until they notice one of them – a violent zoom-in – keeps quiet; the message is clear. Then the news, with at least one public relations item pushed by the military: “teen-age girls eager to become fighters”, “a remote-control watch-and-shoot system on the Gaza fence”, “a unique glimpse into a top-secret air-force base” or the like. Not to mention the real news, be it about the Palestinian territories, Lebanon, Iran, or even the billions of terrorists disguised as miserable African refugees allegedly waiting on the Egyptian border to inundate Israel: all these issues, and many more, are predominantly managed and framed by the military.

The military service has been made a major issue in Israeli public discourse. Not that the army is short of soldiers: on the contrary, the number of recruits requesting “to serve their country” in combat units is at record level. Nevertheless, uniting the nation around the military as the ultimate good is a goal in itself, especially when it implicitly excludes the Israeli-Palestinians, who are not conscripted. Thus the stage and screen actor Itay Tiran was removed from Israel’s official propaganda website when someone noticed he had not served; And, following the Zeitgeist, “national left-wing” playwright Shmuel Hasfari said he would refuse to work with Tiran “just like with any murderer or rapist.”

Most Israeli artists are careful not to express themselves critically about Israel’s policies, definitely not to say a word against the country’s deep militarism and racism; Scander Kobti, co-director of Ajami, nominated for an Academy Award in Best Foreign Language Film, caused a scandal just for saying he didn’t “represent Israel” in Hollywood (“I cannot represent a state that doesn’t represent me”, the Israeli-Palestinian claimed) – even that is more than the selectively sensitive Israeli ear can bear. Every Israeli is expected to be an ambassador abroad – no wonder that in a highly popular Israeli reality show just a few years ago, candidates competed on who would best represent Israeli propaganda abroad (a former Israeli army spokesman was among the judges). Remember it next time you talk to an Israeli: especially outside Israel, you might hear not the truth, but the official state propaganda. Though many Israelis sincerely believe the two are identical.

The deep racism of the Israeli psyche is on the rise. The 1990s, at least in hindsight, marked some liberalization of the public discourse; the first decade of this century crushed it, and now the mildly critical, left-liberal discourse hardly exists in the mainstream. No wonder the liberal left has just 3 seats out of 120 in the Knesset; all the other parties are various shades of right-wing, far right, or fascism (except the small outcast “Arab” parties). The racist mindset can be observed in the most trivial daily situations, like my elderly neighbor, when told I saw someone peeping at my window the other night, instinctively reacting with a single question: “Have you seen whether it was a Jew or an Arab?”

Ever more often, when I mention the Netherlands, I am told that all the Dutch were anti-Semitic and collaborated with the Nazis; my already ritualized reaction – that my grandparents and my mother owe their lives to Dutch Christians who risked their own lives to save them – is met with a shrug, expressing something like “don’t challenge my precious prejudice” or “don’t be so naïve, we all know everybody hates us.” And this is not just the case of Holland: from Sweden to Ethiopia, from Turkey to Argentina, no matter how Jewish-friendly (and Israel-friendly) a nation has been historically, Israelis are encouraged to view all non-Jews (“Goyim” is the pejorative term used uncritically by most Hebrew speakers) as inherently anti-Semitic and therefore anti-Israeli. Every criticism of Israel’s policy is automatically dismissed as yet another incarnation of an endemic, incurable hatred of Jews. Just like anti-communism was the national religion of the USA during the Cold War, the fanatic belief in an eternal world-wide anti-Semitic conspiracy is the true national cult of Israel. The voices portraying even President Obama as anti-Semitic are just one undertone in an ear-deafening choir of incitement against every dissenting voice, within or without.

The younger generation knows little else. How could it? As the Jerusalem Prof. Nurit Peled-Elhanan shows, Israeli schoolbooks – their text, maps, and pictures – are inherently racist, especially against Arabs; but whereas the racism was sophisticatedly disguised in the 1990s schoolbooks, in the last decade it’s overt and explicit. Arabs are consistently represented as primitive, threatening, and untrustworthy; the Palestinian narrative is either distorted and denied, or simply ignored. The Occupation, says Peled-Elhanan, is never mentioned, the Green Line does not exist; many Israelis no longer know what it means, let alone where it is.

Even the language retreats: if the term “occupied territories” sounded rather neutral just a few years ago, when even Ariel Sharon used the term “occupation”, now the sickening euphemism “liberated territories” has made a comeback. At the same time, hypocrisy and double-standards are cultivated: right-wing parties outside Israel are regularly termed “extremist”, “xenophobic” or “racist”, terms never applied to much more extreme Israeli parties. Official Israel is shocked and outraged by naming a street in Ramallah after a Palestinian terrorist Ayyash (assassinated by Israel in 1996); At the same time, the Israeli far-right leader Ze’evi (assassinated by Palestinians in 2001), whose main political platform was ethnic cleansing (“transfer”) of all Palestinians, has several streets, three promenades, two settlements, a highway, a bridge, and an army base named after him, and a law to commemorate him and even educate future generations with his “legacy.”

Is It Too Late?

This is the present atmosphere in Israel – one of a rising, violent nationalist self-righteousness, especially among the younger generation. A recent poll shows that while 35% of Israelis over the age of 30 said they would vote for right-wing parties, this number almost doubled for youths up to the age of 29, and stood at 61%.

Does this mean there is no chance for peace? A difficult question. Despite all of the above, polls also show 60% support among the general public for removing the majority of settlements. As always, this 60% majority of Israeli Jews overwhelmingly believes it is a minority – only a third of respondents said such an evacuation had the support of the Israeli majority. This last figure – the majority being persuaded it is actually a minority – is one of the greatest achievements of the official Israeli brain-wash, and has been consistent for many years.

One can therefore understand Zeev Sternhell’s call on Obama’s Washington to implement an imposed solution: “Were Israeli society prepared to pay the price for peace, its government would not be fanning the flames of conflict […] The conclusion is that […] the only solution is an imposed one”, writes the prominent Israeli political scientist. This is no rosy scenario either, needless to say. In clear imitation of Nazi calls to try the German politicians who signed the “humiliating” Treaty of Versailles (1919), the Israeli right-wing has already demanded to “put Oslo criminals on trial” for signing the Oslo Accords. One can recall European history and imagine how Israeli fascists would react to an “imposed peace.” Luckily, they are just a minority; but given the current atmosphere in Israel, as well as the demographic advantage of the right-wing (Orthodox Jews have much more children), it might not remain a minority for long. Time, if there still is any, is running out.

The next war will not be a 1973 style war. That did not work for the Syrians. It will be a long war like the Iran/Iraq war. It will end when Israel recognizes that it can win any more wars even though it is capable of destroying others infrastructure and killing thousands of civilians. Israel will suffer high number of casualties and a destroyed infrastructure too. Missiles and people will be the weapon of choice. Not tanks. Again I hate to see that happen. I hate wars and violence but sometimes you to use that path to get your rights. The article that I linked to above reinforces that.

I only want war with Jews NewZ

I hate wars and violence but sometimes you to use that path to get your rights.

Ziad,

I’m glad you hate war except in order to “get your rights”. I’m relieved.

When will you be going to war with all the governments in the Middle East to “get your rights” or does that only apply to Israel?;)

Amir @24,

The fact that you believe that because some of the accepted moral codes of the world today were introduced by Judaism, means that you stand beyond moral critique, shows in itself how morally bankrupt you are. You bring the point of self-hatred. Again, I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Could you clarify? In the meantime, as long as we’re in the realm of gross generalizations, let me assert that in my opinion you are a self-hating Jew and self-hating human being. Why not? Slinging accusations is always easy.

For the record, Akbar is far more moderate than you are. My problem with Akbar is that he’s blindly following government lines and is dishonest and not cordial sometimes in his arguments, but at least he advocates a plan of action that has some horizon of peace and freedom to all peoples in the ME. You’re arguments on the other hand are semi-mystical “let’s wait and see”, “the Arabs are weak, Israel is strong” etc. etc.

When I speak of morality, I speak mostly about the Apartheid regime in the territories.

I would agree with you that the sanctity of life of one person is more important, most of the time, than the freedom of another person. Thus if person X says that he is about to kill person Y, then it behooves person Y to do what it can to deny Y’s freedom so as it will not jeopardize X’s life.

But like everything in life, there is a balance. I can’t deny my neighbor his driving license, just because he somewhat endangers the safety of my kids when they come back from school, by driving his car on the road they have to cross.

Thomas Jefferson, the great ideologue behind the American democracy, made the exact argument you are making, to explain why it is impossible to make the blacks part of the free American democracy, when it was established in 1776. He said, they would rise up and take revenge of the white man who enslaved them. Other regimes too, made their privileged constituents believe that they are facing grave dangers unless they continue the oppression of the underprivileged. The whites in South Africa made the same argument.

You could say that the Afrikaners were actually right. Now that Apartheid is abolished, many whites are getting attacked and are running for their lives. Similarly, you could say, Israel will be attacked from a newly-established Palestine and Jews will get fatigued and leave the country. This is, of course, possible. What can I say, the future is perilous for Israel. Every action or inaction has its risks and consequences. I have sympathy for your plight. When Shai and I say you’re arrogant, it’s because you think that Israel can continue the current status quo, which guarantees your maximal safety at the cost of the freedoms of millions. Even if it works today, it’s highly unlikely to work in the future, and it’s a status quo that raises the stakes all the time. In a way, you’re borrowing from your children’s reservoir of potential future security.

To falsely claim that a certain group (i.e. followers of Judaism) introduced morality to humnaity as in 24 and then have some other Israeli implicitly back him/her up as in 33 while claiming to offer a critic of the original claim should be flatly rejected by the SC forum as a form of fascism.
This kind of debate should not be tolerated and I ask the moderators of SC to do something about it.
This is no different than Nazi claims, the white supremacist claims or any other such claims made by similar ideologies.

Arabs and Turks: Mending a broken relationship
MUSTAFA AKYOL

Friday, April 9, 2010

Turkey launched the Arabic version of its official TV last Sunday. Called “TRT Arabic,” the channel is expected to reach 350 million people throughout the Arab world. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, who spoke at the opening ceremony, noted that it marked “a historic day for Turkish-Arab friendship,” initiating an era of “brotherhood, unity and solidarity” between the two peoples.

I share Erdoğan’s wishes on this. I also think that we Turks and Arabs need to do a little bit of historical revision to get rid of some of the artificial walls built between us in the past century.

On our side, these walls were built mainly by the nationalist ideology of the Turkish Republic. From the late 1920s on, the latter’s propaganda machine created two popular myths, by which many Turks were brainwashed.

Republican myth-making

The first of these was that the Arabs “stabbed us in the back” during World War I. (This stab-in-the-back theme was a popular one among some other nationalists of the time as well.) The story was not totally untrue, for some Arab leaders, such as the Sharif Husayn of Mecca, had indeed collaborated with the British to rebel against Ottoman rule. But many other Arabs took the other way. As Mitchell G. Bard, the director of the Jewish Virtual Library, notes, “most of the Arabs did not fight with the Allies against the Turks in World War I.” In fact, as Bard emphasizes with a subtext of his own, “most Arabs fought for their Turkish rulers.”

The second, and the more untrue, modern Turkish myth was that “Arabization” had been a historic misfortune for the nation. Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, the great patron of this thesis, asserted that Turks were “a great nation before Islam,” and now was the time to discover “the lost civilized traits of the Turk.” Hence came the extensive republican effort to revitalize (and actually invent) the glorious history of the ancient “Turkish stock.”

The historical truth, however, was the exact opposite. The pre-Islamic Turks of Central Asia were a warlike nomadic people with very little trace of cultural sophistication. But the Arabo-Islamic civilization of the medieval age was, in the words of Bernard Lewis, “the richest, most powerful, most creative, most enlightened [civilization] in the world.” That’s why the “Arabization” of the Turks, i.e., their gradual conversion to Islam from the mid ninth century onwards, was actually an enlightenment for them. It is no accident that all famed Turkish scholars, scientists, poets or thinkers are from the Islamic age, and not the pre-Islamic one.

The synthesis of the Turkish military might and the Arabo-Islamic culture would reach its zenith in the Ottoman Empire, which ruled much of today’s “Middle East” for more than four centuries with relative tolerance, peace and rule of law. The Ottomans, who adopted the Arabic script and enriched Turkish with many Arabic (and Persian) words, respected the Arabs as the descendants of the prophet, calling them “kavm-i necib,” or “the honorable people.”

This affable attitude to the Arabs lasted until the very end of the empire, with only the Young Turk government taking some extreme measures during World War I against Arab nationalism, real or perceived. Particularly the mass executions of some Arab intellectuals in 1916 by Jemal Pasha, the Ottoman governor of Syria, left a very black stain.

Unfortunately, the post-Ottoman Arab states, especially those in the core of the Middle East, created their own national consciousness by cherry-picking such nasty episodes in the four-century long Ottoman saga. The Cold War added to the problem, by putting us into opposing camps.

A story to share

However, things are changing. First, Turkey is outgrowing the myths and fears created in early decades of the Republic, and becoming more at peace with its own identity. After being dominated for decades by a wannabe-French elite, the country is now raising political and cultural leaders who are more proud of their nation’s place within the Muslim civilization.

This doesn’t mean that Turkey is turning its face from the West — something I would strongly oppose. But it does mean that Turkey is “not turning its back to the East anymore,” as I heard Erdoğan saying on TV the other day.

This also doesn’t imply that Turkey will adopt the ways of its Arab neighbors. I am the farthest thing from a nationalist, but I think it is fair to say that we Turks had a better socio-political experience in the 20th century than most of our co-religionists. Unlike most, we were never colonized, and had the chance to experiment with democracy. We also enjoyed proximity to the West, a relatively free economy, and currently an EU accession process. (Who knows where the latter is going, but it has helped so far.)

So, perhaps we Turks have a story to share with our Arab brothers about all the complicated questions of modernity.

And I am really saying this with a sense of not pride but duty. I know, after all, that what we owe to the Arabs from a millennium ago is unforgettable.

© 2009 Hurriyet Daily News
URL: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=arabs-and-turks-mending-a-broken-relationship-2010-04-09

Yossi,

this is exactly what I think.! I’m glad that you wrote it, because though you don’t agree with me, you understand my point of view. that:

“..if person X says that he is about to kill person Y, then it behooves person Y to do what it can to deny Y’s freedom so as it will not jeopardize X’s life”.

The blacks in S. Africa never threatened the whites with annihilation. Nor did the Afro-American slaves. In fact, the end of the Apartheid became possible, when the black community guarantied the safety and the rights of the white community.

I’m not happy about Arabs not enjoying freedoms. You undoubtedly noticed that I’m pro-democracy. But as you said so nicely, when they say that they’re about to kill me, to steal my property, to take my independence from my people, and to force us to live according to their laws, then we have to deny their freedoms and protect ourselves.

You say, and I do respect your and Shai’s opinion, that “it’s highly unlikely to work in the future”, and that we borrow from our future generations. Probably so, but I see no alternative at this moment in time. We had enough of experiments. Now we need something concrete.

In order to solve this mess, it will need mutual recognition and guaranties, and it would have to be achieved in the largest popular forum available (democratically elected house of representatives, or a democratic referendum). The Arab league, and the Arab juntas aren’t legitimate for this matter. And so we have to wait for them to ripen. It might sound arrogant, patronizing and not PC, but it is very logical (in my eyes at least).
.

Amir,

Your list of “demands” is unrealistic. Does the US demands democracy in China or Russia before it reaches agreements with these countries? If you are such a democracy proponent, you can start from Israel—annex the territories and give everybody equal rights? Oh, that you wouldn’t do, right?

In the meanwhile while you are waiting for the oceans to boil or freeze the Arabs understand that Israel only understand force. That was the lesson from Lebanon and Gaza, and will so be the case in the WB too, while you are waiting for democracy in Libya or who knows where.

OTW,

You asked: “is it possible that Amir’s stance now, as a representative of the position of 70% of Israeli society, is also a reflexive reaction to the erosion of Israel’s international legitimacy.”

I’m sure it’s related, as well as the PTSD symptoms that Amir is talking about. The analysis by Ran HaCohen which Ziad posted above is spot-on. The second Intifada was definitely a watershed event. It’s possible that if I were to spend the last decade in Israel, I would feel different about the whole issue. The point is, Amir and co. must understand that they can’t wallow in self-pity about PTSD symptoms. They simply don’t have the luxury to. They must face the inevitabilities of their situation and find a way to embrace the future that these inevitabilities portend. I’m afraid though that the only way they know how to deal with this situation is the Masada way…

I was just scanning through the articles and said to myself , What would i do if i were Netanyahu,

I would look around and see what is happening now , i see that Israel has control over the borders of Gaza with no attacks coming from there and where i can go and bomb any time reminding the Palestinians who is boss , without having any legal obligation to their survival which seem to be part of the world charity work ,
then , i look at my northern border and see that it has been quite since 2006 with no Israeli being killed there and i continue to fly over Lebanon , reminding the Lebanese that at any time i can start bombing and i can inflict significant amount of destruction without having to worry about significant retaliation ,

The Golan has been quite for many years , it is actually part of Israel and Syria is doing nothing to get it back that i can not deal with ,
The West bank is calm and Abbas and his government is doing their best protecting Israel with the imagination that Israel will reward him , while he is hoping i can expand the settlements and take more lands to satisfy the natural growth of the settlements which means have more streets without having new names , all this while making the lives of the residents of the West bank miserable so they can give up and leave ,

Our leaders mostly of the opposition are accused of war crimes but nobody is able to do anything about it ,

my government is strong and supportive of my position , Israelis are not being killed and Israel is not under economic sanction or any other kind of siege

So , can anybody tell why i should do anything , life is good for Israel and the Israelis and makes no sense to move until i am forced to ,

and No Joshua, the US will not force Israel into doing anything , it could not do that in the last 60 years and i do not see anything that would change that ,
over the last century the Arabs always hoped to get their rights by international pressure and by aligning themselves with West only to be stabbed in the back ,
The only way for the Arabs to get their rights is to fight for them ,anything else is just more of the same , hope and despair on the Arab side ,

Boom, Boom Bibi and Avig. have finally decided, since as Norman states above the US does not have the b@lls to anger its tail on a “final so;ution” to the Palestenian “dogs” as Moshe Dayan used to call them. And best of all its reported in Haaretz.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1162075.html

Norman:

You nailed it on the head. I agree completely with your statement, that the US will not force Israel into anything. And if they do, it will only be a diplomatic move in order to give a sense of false hope until the next president comes along. We have seen this play over and over again.

Guys, lets not kid ourselves, history as Norman and I have stated a dozen times, Washington is a controlled entity. As much as Prof. Josh likes to believe that the Israeli Lobby and Christian big brothers will be unable to stop a new American-Arab relationship from forming, it will only be an orchestrated one. The drums will beat a little and stop. A peace deal will be in the works and when it does not pan out, they will blame the Arabs as they always have. And of course, the Jewish controlled media will come out and say “aha…you see we gave up so much for peace, more than anytime in history…and the Arabs dogs ruined it”, which of course is always a lie.

Norman is right, the Arabs will have to fight for peace either through a unified stance diplomatically or through war. What is different now than 1970’s is the TURKEY-IRAN-SYRIA partnership that has been brewing for several years which is much stronger than EGYPT-JORDAN-SYRIA partnership (1973). That is what Israel is trying to prevent by drumming up support to preemtively strike Iran. Israel is not afraid for its people (they are safer than ever), rather Israel is afraid of loosing its grip on the region.

Agree in essence with both NORMAN’s and HUSAM’s conclusions.

As an American with one passport only I believe that the zionist menace does not only threaten the Palestenians, Arabs/Muslims but also the USA.

The issue of whether America is tied to Israel for “ever” needs to be addressed politically within the 50 states. Americans need to become vocal about whether their representatives main concern is as Congresswoman Deborah Wasserman (D) from Florida took an oath that claimed:-

“I want to be able to maximize my ability to advance the interests of Israel, and there are different organizations doing that. AIPAC is one of them, and I’m committed to them. J Street has worthy goals as well. The more advocates for Israel in America, the better.”

In this election year as well as in 2012 we as Americans must demand from our elected representatives a statement under oath that states:

“I want to be able to maximize my ability to advance the interests of the USA first, foremost and last. I’m committed to ALL my fellow Americans and ONLY to those whose allegiance is solely to the USA. I believe that the American public deserves the full and sole loyalty of their public officials.”

Changing the topic to a positive note and after all this Forum is called Syria Comment:

Syria is at its infancy, going through a revival. The old Syrian guard are aging and/or dying and their children are less interested in politics. Look at the difference in style between the old/new Assads: Bashar and Asma vs. Hafez and Anissa – the latter is more in line with their citizens. The circumstances were different, granted. Syrian expats are returning, bringing fresh ideas and breathing new life into various aspects all around Syria.

Change will not happen overnight, and it shouldn’t. Syria is on the right track for advancement and hopefully to the betterment of the average Syrian. Education is improving. All to say, the majority of the general population is behind the present government, even more so now due to the sense of optimism and buzz that is going on.

Add to that the safety and security one feels walking any old town street in Damasucs at midnight and the hidden historical treasures, all of which spells opportunity.

The only thing that can spoil this bright picture is (a zionist/mossad operation 🙂 you know a few bombs go off in various mosques or ), a regional war. I base my predictions of stability on the amount of foreign capital that will flow into Syria especially from Europe and the US. If American & European entities open up shop, sanctions and terror status are removed, and the relationship with the west improves further, then you will have perhaps a decade or more of prosperity in the region.

Yossi,

You bring the example of Masada, to hint that the Jews are about to commit suicide.
A more appropriate example of commiting suicide (very rare in biblical stories), will be the case of Samson.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0716.htm

Judges c16 v30: “And Samson said: ‘Let me die with the Philistines.’ And he bent with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead that he slew at his death were more than they that he slew in his life”.
.

Correction:

the headline above reads: Netanyahu: “We will oppose an imposed solution”

it should read: Netanyahu: “We will oppose any solution”

Norman,

I’ll play the opposite role for a second, if I may. I’ll be Assad, and try to see what I should do.

My country was isolated during the terrible-Bush era, and I wisely managed to not only ride out this wave, but in fact come out much stronger. I’ve allied myself with powerful nations, established myself as a leader, maintained a consistent record of resisting Israel on all fronts, and my popularity throughout the Arab World has skyrocketed. I managed to regain Syria’s contacts in Europe, and its emissaries are knocking on my door almost on a weekly basis.

But something is still missing. I have not yet healed the damaged relationship with the U.S. While Syria has proven that it does not need the U.S. for survival, there is no doubt good relations with Washington are strategically important to Syria. While some European nations don’t seem to be overly concerned with the alleged role of Syria in the Hariri case, with backing insurgency in Iraq, and with our close relationship to Iran, Washington is still very concerned. I have yet to change ease their deep suspicion and concerns.

So what do I do? Do I continue building and fostering a new “Muslim Axis” in the region, with Turkey and Iran? Do I get more involved in Lebanon? Do I play to the drums of war in the region? Do I continue actively supporting Hamas and Hezbollah?

I think, if I was Assad, I would focus much more on Washington than I would on Iran. Because regardless of his accomplishments thus far, there is little doubt that an Obama-type president does not appear every four years in Washington. His replacement may be far more reminiscent of some Sarah Palin, than of Bill Clinton.

And if so, I’m not sure Syria’s “new-Axis” will be able to stand against the anticipated change-in-policy (from what it is even now), should a more conservative/neoconish administration appear, and act on some perceived suspicions and fears. Do I doubt President Palin could launch some Iraq-3 in the region, this time including Iran and Syria? Absolutely not.

So what can I do in Washington, that I’m not doing already? I think, I should send my finest emissaries, my best PR-people, to send across a very simple and loud message – Syria wants Peace. It is ready for Peace. It wants Washington to broker that Peace (not Turkey). And it is ready to “go far” (spelling out to Obama, in some “Assad Deposit”, what that means) to reach this peace. It should, quietly if need be, ease the fears of Congress and the Administration with regards to Lebanon, Iran, and Iraq. It is unable to do that, if it is trying and failing, then Syria must try differently, again and again and again. This isn’t about capitulation, it’s about Syria’s long-term strategic interests. And if I’m Assad, I think I should make sure those interests lie in Washington, no less than in Tehran or Ankara.

(On a side note, I would advise the same to Israel. Because in our case, Obama may be there much longer than some in Jerusalem might hope for.)

it should read: Netanyahu: “We will oppose any solution”

Mazin,

Just an FYI, but it is the PA that is refusing to joint peace talks, not Netanyahu.

Husam,

I do not believe that the US will “force Israel” to do anything. I do believe that he US will increasingly distance itself from Israeli policies of expansion and apartheid. It will have to. In the past, the US could uphold the notion that peace was in the offing in the form of a two state solution.

Once that solution is gone, however, as people are beginning to understand, American statesmen will have a harder time making excuses.

Yossi,
I agree with you that the “American people love Israel” and that this love is unlikely to change – particularly among Jews, Christians and US congressmen, who need money.

I do believe that US statesman, who lead our foreign policy, will see the increasingly high price-tag for supporting Israel as a liability – one that they will try to back away from.

Under Bush, the US tried to destroy Israel’s enemies in the belief that they were our enemies, hence the undifferentiated “war on terror” and Iraq war.

These wars turned out to be costly and unhelpful. The US is now trying to engage Syria and Iran to Israel’s great horror. Engagement may not lead to much. American power is greatly diminished. But US statesmen are going through a process of figuring out how US and Israeli interests diverge. I think that process has some way to go before we arrive at its further limit.

Syria System pushing other Arab countries for more control on media
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hussain-abdulhussain/china-syria-censorship_b_520580.html

Co-Directors for Peace & Apartheid

Husam,

I do not believe that the US will “force Israel” to do anything. I do believe that he US will continue to deal with muslim extremism, Iranian and Syrian state sponsored terrorism, despite Israeli policies of self-defence and equal rights. It will have to. In the past, the US could uphold the notion that peace was in the offing in the form of a two state solution. And nothing has really changed that.

As people are beginning to understand, Israel is not the reason why the Middle East is a mess.

Turstquest:

I would urge readers of your link to huggingpost.com news article read the comments as well. Mr. Hussain A. Hussain is baised and seems that me he is writing to discredit a historical ‘first’ where all Arabs agree on something.

Can anyone prove without doubt, by providing conclusive evidence, that the bombings, terror activities in the M.E. are not ignited by Mossad or other Agencies?

I mean any organization with the means, the skills, and the will can go into a bank and plant fingerprints of his rival gang to make belief that the heist was none other than someone known to police, while the actual thief gets away with millions and locking up others.

The same can be true in Iraq and Aghganistan. Is it plausible that that explosive materials known to be of Iranian origin can be used to blow up a Sunni Mosque or a Sunni district leading Sunnis to conclude this was the works of Shia when in fact it was done by a third party!?

Perhaps this may “partly” explain the sectarian violence phenomena. Some may ask what about body parts of the the suicide bomber (when one exist)? Today many hopeless people can be psychologically profiled, manipulated, brain-washed, given high-tech drugs, and micro-chiped to carry out a mission. I believe if the technology existed 50 years ago, it certainly is more likely and more robust today for covert operations falsely using the well known “in the name of Islam and 72 Virgins hoax” to induce a type of robot like behavior. History has shown with many declassified documents that many such underground military labs were and continue to be operational.

The story in the M.E., in my personal opinion, may not be exactly what it seems, even to the minds of bloggers like us. There are evil actions being commited for us sheep beyond imagination.

Here is some back up for my previous post:

In 1994 Ronald K. Siegel, a Associate Research Professor in the Department of Psychiatry and Biobehavioral Sciences at UCLA, wrote Whispers: The Voices of Paranoia.4 Dr. Siegel, an expert on hallucinations, edited a book on this subject in 1975 with Louis Jolyn West of MKULTRA fame.5

MKULTRA, as well as projects BLUEBIRD, ARTI-CHOKE, CHATTER, CASTI-GATE, MKDELTA, MKNAOMI, THIRD CHANCE, MKSEARCH, MKOFTEN, etc., were covert CIA projects involving many prominent members and institutions of the medical and scientific communities to investigate and experiment with various forms of behaviour modification and control using, in many cases, unwitting human subjects. In operation from the late 1940’s until the early 1970’s, they delved into everything from drugs to hypnosis to electronics.6

Whispers is a collection of case histories of mind control, (or paranoia as he calls it) studied by Siegel. One case concerned a man named Tolman who believed his mind was being controlled by computers via a satellite system named POSSE (Personal Orbiting Satellite for Surveillance and Enforcement). Interestingly, author Dorothy Burdick, in her 1982 book Such Things Are Known described what she claimed was her mind control harassment by computers via satellites. She names Siegel as being the inventor of a device named FOCUS (Flexible Optical Control Unit Simulator) which can project hallucinations directly onto the retina so the subjects can’t distinguish the images from reality.7 In Siegel’s book Tolman claims images are being directly transmitted into his brain. Siegel says, You mean to tell me that here are machines capable of sending visual images directly into the brain?.8

In 1968 Siegel published a professional paper titled A Device for Chronically Controlled Visual Input which is a description of a device he developed to project images directly into the brain of experimental animals via the optic nerve. He suggests further experimentation be conducted on neonates (kittens) which have their total visual stimulation controlled from the time they open their eyes.9

Thirty years later a team of US scientists wired a computer to a cat’s brain and created videos of what the cat was seeing. One of the scientists working on the project, Garret Stanley of Harvard University, predicts machines with brain interfaces. We can only imagine how far such technology has advanced in the secret research laboratories of the US government and the military/industrial complex.

Edward Tilton, President of Silent Sounds Inc., says this about S-quad in a letter dated 13 December, 1996:

All schematics, however, have been classified by the US Government and we are not allowed to reveal the exact details we make tapes and CDs for the German Government, even the former Soviet Union countries! All with the permission of the US State Department, of course The system was used throughout Operation Desert Storm (IRAQ) quite successfully.

By using these computer-enhanced EEGs, scientists can identify and isolate the brain’s low-amplitude emotion signature clusters, synthesise them and store them on another computer. In other words, by studying the subtle characteristic brainwave patterns that occur when a subject experiences a particular emotion, scientists have been able to identify the concomitant brainwave pattern and can now duplicate it. These clusters are then placed on the Silent Sound carrier frequencies and will silently trigger the occurrence of the same basic emotion in another human being!

McVeigh: Manchurian Candidate?

Among the many telemetry instruments being used today, are miniature radio transmitters that can be swallowed, carried externally, or surgically implanted…. They permit the simultaneous study of behaviour and physiological functioning.
Dr. Stuart Mackay, Bio-Medical Telemetry (textbook), 1968
While visiting friends in Decker, Michigan, Timothy McVeigh complained that the Army had implanted him with a microchip, a miniature subcutaneous transponder, so that they could keep track of him. He complained that it left an unexplained scar on his buttocks and was painful to sit on. McVeigh was convicted of the 1995 bombing of a US Government building in Oklahoma City.

Miniaturised telemetrics have been part of an ongoing project by the military and the various intelligence agencies to test the effectiveness of tracking soldiers on the battlefield. The miniature implantable telemetric device was declassified long ago.

According to Dr. Carl Sanders, the developer of the Intelligence Manned Interface (IMI) biochip, We used this with military personnel in the Iraq War where they were actually tracked using this particular type of device.

It is also interesting to note that the Calspan Advanced Technology Centre in Buffalo, NY (Calspan ATC), where McVeigh worked, is engaged in microscopic electronic engineering of the kind applicable to telemetrics. Calspan was founded in 1946 as Cornell Aeronautical Laboratory, which included the Fund for the Study of Human Ecology, a CIA financing conduit for mind control experiments by emigre Nazi scientists and others under the direction of CIA doctors Sidney Gottlieb, Ewen Cameron, and Louis Jolyn West.

According to mind control researcher Alex Constantine, Calspan places much research emphasis on bioengineering and artificial intelligence (Calspan pioneered the field in the 1950s). In his article, The Good Soldier, Constantine states:

Human tracking and monitoring technology are well within Calspan’s sphere of pursuits. The company is instrumental in REDCAP, an Air Force electronic warfare system that winds through every Department of Defense facility in the country. A Pentagon release explains that REDCAP is used to evaluate the effectiveness of electronic-combat hardware, techniques, tactics and concepts. The system includes closed-loop radar and data links at RF manned data fusion and weapons control posts. One Patriot computer news board reported that a disembodied, rumbling, low-frequency hum had been heard across the country the week of the [Oklahoma] bombing. Past hums in Taos, New Mexico, Eugene and Medford, Oregon, Timmons, Ontario and Bristol, England were most definitely (despite specious official denials) attuned to the brain’s auditory pathways.

The Air Force is among Calspan’s leading clients, and Eglin AFB has farmed key personnel to the company. The grating irony recalling McVeigh’s contention he’d been implanted with a telemetry chip is that the Instrumentation Technology Branch of Eglin Air Force Base is currently engaged in the tracking of mammals with subminiature telemetry devices. According to an Air Force press release, the biotelemetry chip transmits on the upper S-band (2318 to 2398 MHz), with up to 120 digital channels.
There is nothing secret about the biotelemetry chip. Ads for commercial versions of the device have appeared in national publications. Time magazine ran an ad for an implantable pet transponder in its 26 June, 1995 issue ironically enough opposite an article about a militia leader who was warning about the coming New World Order. While monitoring animals has been an unclassified scientific pursuit for decades, the monitoring of humans has been a highly classified project that is but a subset of the Pentagon’s nonlethal arsenal. As Constantine notes, the dystopian implications were explored by Defense News for 20 March, 1995

God knows what is the capability fast forward to 2010!

Mind Control NewZ

Can anyone prove without doubt, by providing conclusive evidence, that the bombings, terror activities in the M.E. are not ignited by Mossad or other Agencies?

The same can be true in Iraq and Aghganistan.

Husam,

I don’t think anyone can prove the Mossad has been involved in “bombings and terror activities” to the extent the Islamic/jihadist organizations have. All one has to do is see who claimed RESPONSIBILITY for some of these “terror activities”.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2010/03/2010331171748201274.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/28/national/main6030616.shtml

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/10/27/iraq.al.qaeda/

http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/al-qaida-group-islamic-state-of-iraq-claims-iraq-suicide-bombings/19432878

http://www.ekurd.net/mismas/articles/misc2007/5/islamterror159.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8233265.stm

BTW – Does Saddam Hussein and the Asads count?

This could be an interesting read for Dr. Landis and others.

Moshe Ya’alon is attending the Obama summit on nuclear strategy in Washington to day and tomorrow.

Netanyahu Adviser Ya’alon: ‘I Do Not Accept’ Any Withdrawal From Settlements

An interview published in the Israeli newspaper Yediot Ahronot, Moshe
Ya’alon — Israel’s Vice Prime Minister, Minister of Strategic Affairs, and a close
adviser of Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu — reveals that the lame efforts
to resume the negotiations with the Palestinians are just “maneuvers” by the
Netanyahu administration.

Ya’alon’s comments explain that the gestures made by Netanyahu — from the
qualified endorsement of the two-state solution to the decision to partially and
temporarily freeze construction in the settlements — are all strategically
intended to allow for greater settlement expansion in the future.

“And I say so out of knowledge,” Ya’alon told Yediot. “Nobody in the forum of
seven [senior cabinet ministers] thinks that we can reach an agreement with the
Palestinians.” Yediot Ahronot reports (print version, translated from Hebrew):

Q: So why all these games of make-believe negotiations? It’s possible to
announce that we will not reach an agreement, and that is all.

YA’ALON: Because in the political establishment there are pressures. Peace
Now from within and other elements from without. So you have to maneuver.
But what I’m saying now has to be given over to the Americans, and I hope that
they will understand.

Some of what we have to do is maneuver with the American administration
and the European establishment, which are also nourished by Israeli elements,
which create the illusion that an agreement can be reached.

Ya’alon disclosed that Netanyahu has made clear that he intends to increase
settlement activity as soon as the freeze expires. “The prime minister reiterates
all the time,” Ya’alon said, “and also brought a decision to the security cabinet
that says clearly, that immediately after the freeze, we will continue to build in
Judea and Samaria as we did before.”

Q: Will we evacuate settlements in the end?

YA’ALON: I do not accept that. What has happened to us in recent years
obligates us to stop with everything connected to withdrawal.

The Netanyahu administration’s refusal to offer any compromise on settlement
expansion in Jerusalem so angered President Obama that the president “walked
out of his meeting” with the Prime Minister. More maneuvers by Bibi, Avigdor
[Joe lieberman’s namesake] on how to respond to Obama’s ended up with Bibi
being told to stay away from DC or ordered to stay away by YA’ALON.

YA”ALON who for some unknown reason has been tagged with the moniker
“CHEMICAL YA” is repreenting Bibi Nethanyahu at the nuclear summit in DC
with Obama and other world leaders.

Nuclear Security vs. Anti-Zionism: A Primer

Now that the “Nuclear Security Summit” is going on in the US, I think it’s appropriate to go down “Memory Lane” and see what “renown academics” and unbiased “reporters” had to say about the despicable Israeli bombing of the North Korean-built nuclear plant in Syria just a few years ago:

Israel-hater: Jonathan Cook

Why Did Israel Attack Syria?

The immediate fallout of the failed attack was an apparent waning of neocon influence. The group’s program of “creative destruction” in the Middle East — the encouragement of regional civil war and the partition of large states that threaten Israel — was at risk of being shunted aside.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18469.htm

Israel hater: Professor Josh

Old Pictures of Syrian Nuke Site Suggest “Refried Beans”

More questions are being raised about the solidity of Washington’s allegations that the site in Syria hit by Israel was a nuclear plant.

https://joshualandis.com/blog/?p=445

AKBAR PALACE said:

Nuclear Security vs. Anti-Zionism: A Primer

Another symptomatic and systematic eagerness on the part of AP to make others feel guilty, to paint them all guilty for criminal acts the Jews themselves commited.

The reactions to a Syrian attack on Israeli plants and or nuclear facilities would have ended with the same hysterics that “everybody hates” the Jews/israel [except the brainwashed Americans] and it would be pegged as a criminal act. So must the acts that Israel commits in bombing and killing others.

In their twisted logic its not only acceptable but honorable for Israel to attack Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, the Palestenians in Gaza and the West Bank and be the only state with over 200 nuclear bombs.

This kind of mentality may have stood them in good stead but those days are slipping away. and people do not care anymore whether they are tagged as anti-israel or even Jewish.

Cause if the Israelis avow to hating the Palestenian, whom they have called and still call “DOGS” others have the right if not the duty to call the Israelis likewise. Thats the way of the world you Nethanyahu, Richard Perle, Elliot Abrams,Pipes, Wolfowitz Podhoretz, Kristols, Ross etc,. have actually created in your Clean Break Project.

Husam,
It seems from your comments that you are hinting that I have chip implanted or the author has one, tell you the truth I don’t know and I don’t know if you have one or anyone else on this site have one. :))

If you are saying that because it is their first makes it important and right, allow me to disagree.

But I do agree that the comments are interesting.

Trustquest:

You may have a chip implanted only if you are an asset working for the CIA, a military operative, or tent-dweller-turned-suicide-bomber type of a guy. If you read my comments completely and did any google search for “microship implant” or “military mind control”, then add “Iraq” to the search, results will show that this is indeed real.

This is not a theory, but reality. Here is one for you: my wife and in May of 2008 were contemplating adopting a kitten, so instead of going to the pet store, we decided to go to the local SPCA and find one that we could save. We found the perfect adorable one which we proceeded to inquire on the procedure to take her home on the spot. We were told that we had to pay $250 for all preparation which included an implantation of a micro-chip. We were shocked at this invasive procedure. And best yet, we could not opt out! Don’t believe me, Google “micro chip implantation SPCA”. It is common all over the US and Canada.

This is just the beginning. That Saturday afternoon at the SPCA were full of kids, and this is just a primer for the next generation to be more accepting of such measures.

Regarding the “first” for Arabs to agree about censorship. I believe the article stated that – various Arab states agreed to stop putting each other down. This is soft censorhip, in my opinion, perhaps to improve the world image of Arab leaders who frequently engage in name calling. Trustquest, you can’t go from dictatorship-president-for-life to total democracy overnight. I was not implying censorship is good thing rather the “agreement” between Arab states deserves a toast.

So, Cheers if you are Arab.

Shai,

As long as Israel has hold on congress as it does now there is no chance that the US can do anything to advance peace , if the US really wants justice in the Mideast it would have moved on the Palestinian tract who did everything you want Syria to do , and they got nothing , the history of the US with Syria is just deception and more deception lies and more lies , started with Kissinger when he promised to advance the peace process and a just settlement after the disengagement agreement only to find out that it meant only to safeguard Israel so it can annex the Golan Heights , The Us has to prove that it is for justice and Syrian rights , we are waiting for the US to lift all the sanctions that it imposes on Syria for the sake of Israel and to recognize Syria’s right to do everything it can to get her land back and for an American official to show up on the Golan and call for it’s return to Syria in return for a comprehensive peace deal , until then the US is not trusted in Syria or any other Arab country , at least by the people ,

The US should not expect anything from Syria without being with Syria and Syria should not expect and does not expect anything from the US while the US is controlled by the Israeli lobby ,

In summery , the US has to be liberated from the Israeli lobby ,so it ca look after it’s own interest before it can do anything for Syria and until it can do for Syria , i don’t expect Syria to do anything for the US .

And that is my take!.

Norman,

With all due respect, I find it a bit odd that such a small nation is so powerful in Washington, without some kind of mutual interests being served here. What do you mean by “Israel has a hold on Congress“? Sounds like Israel is a giant, and Congress is a mere dwarf.

As we say in Hebrew, let’s “call the Baby by its name”. Israel has a hell of a lot better and stronger PR than, in our case, Syria. We market our ideas, our Occupation, our military operations, our overflights, our attack on your reactor, far better than you market your rights.

You said: “we are waiting for the US to lift all the sanctions that it imposes on Syria for the sake of Israel…” But it doesn’t work that way. No American is going to wake up one fine morning and say “Wallahi, maybe it’s time to lift those sanctions on Syria…” Congress, the Administration, and the rest of America, will change its view of Syria, only if SYRIA changes their mind, not anyone else. And that was my point earlier – that Syria can’t afford to “wait” – that it should improve its PR, and quickly while Obama is still in power. When Sarah Palin is President (God-forbid), it’ll be much tougher, being a clear-and-present member of the “EMA” (Evil Muslim Axis).

Ynet and Haaretz report this morning that Syria is arming Hezbollah (not Lebanon) with Scud missiles. I don’t think any Israeli should be surprised by that. But it is clear to me that Israel just won big-points on the Hill, because I don’t have to be a conniving Jew with long nails, having a “hold on Congress”, to convince Americans that Syria’s intentions aren’t peaceful. That it arms anti-Western terrorists (remember, America has a slight “record” on its own with Hezbollah, that is difficult for her to forget). I could have been a Jamaican saying this to Congress, and they’d agree.

There are two main battles here, that Syria can fight. One is on the land, by herself and not through proxy organizations, and the other is through PR, again by herself. But it’s awfully difficult to do both at the same time, when the other side (Israel) is still deemed the “good guy”.

If you put ego aside, I think Syria can do a far better job in PR than it’s doing, in DC. Arming Hezbollah with Scuds means, to me, only one thing – we’re going to war.

Shai,
Syria has no reach to the US media outlets , Aljazeera English is not allowed to operate , and YES through donations to political campaigns the Israeli LOBBY has a hold on congress , as all the congress men and women who were defeated by AIPAC supported people , about Hezbollah and American history , did you forget the Liberty ship that was attacked by Israel and these dead sailors and their families are still looking for justice , how about all the killing that Israel did in Gaza and still doing there with a blockade that is worse than what the Jewish ghettos faced , with no outrage from the US , YES the US is the dog that being waged by the tail ,

About helping Hezbollah to prepare for an Israeli assault , good for them as Israel proved time and again that it will respond only to force , apparently you and others want Syria to disarm first then beg for a hand out ,

The Final Solution on the Road to Eretz.

Report from a European website and reported in the Guardian.

Catholic Bishop’s comment backwards & forwars.

The scandal isn’t Jews attacking the Catholic Church; the scandal is the Jew-controlled media covering up for the Catholic Church for years so the Jews could use the pedophilia as blackmail against the Church to wipe out Christianity in the Holy Land.

And a report from Haaretz complementary to the above views.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1162075.html

Husam, have you see the smiley face at the end, I was trying to give your post on chips and brain controls a realistic approach so not make it look as a conspiracy theory because science in this field is real thing and the applications are all over from civil to military applications. DNA mapping is something from the past and now brain mapping is actively proceeding. Neuronscience, conscious and unconscious decisions of brain, social effects on decisions making are something worth perusing as human gather more knowledge and open new fields. You don’t know may be in the future a song ( not a chip) could change population minds about one issue if we pin point area and type of waves affect on the brain that change decisions, like this biological studies on frogs which studies the effect of hormone. http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/201002121

And thanks for the explication about those Arab leaders who are trying to protect or reserve their comic behavior, but still the king of kings Mr. Kaddafi is the best of all dictators and kings.

Norman,

“apparently you and others want Syria to disarm first then beg for a hand out.”

You know I haven’t said that. I’m not suggesting Syria should disarm itself, of course not. And to me, it is clear why Syria is arming Hezbollah, and why it has a special relationship with Iran and now Turkey.

My previous comment was meant to depict the view that could be formed by Americans, regardless of who “sells it” to them – be it a Jew or a Jamaican. You can’t blame AIPAC for jumping for joy each time Syrian Scuds are found in Hezbollah hands. That was my point. I wasn’t justifying any act, nor suggesting the Jewish lobby is weak, nonexistent, or neutral.

Norman, we can call each side a terrorist all we want, but in the end, we’ll have to prove to those who’ll broker peace that we want it. I don’t know why Israel is so much more successful at doing that (despite our Occupation of Arab lands) than Syria is. But the fact that you’re losing the battle on the PR-front does not mean you must abandon it, or give up the fight. By the way, there are far more satellite channels in Arabic than there are in Hebrew, and Arab-English than Hebrew-English. You should find a way to use that, but from what I’ve seen, you don’t (not enough).

I’m not here to blame Syria for the Golan still residing in Israeli hands, Norman. You know my views.

Trustquest:

Thank you for clarifying, I thought you were being sarcastic. Just a final note: These mind controlling procedures are at an advanced stage and have been used in IRAQ & Afganistan on military personnel AND more importantly on human-assets-turned-suicide-zombie. If people can understand that this is plausible, you will then have “partly” debunked the 72 Virgin myth and the rhetoric: Islamic Jihadist behind all the turmoil in the M.E.

As much as I hate to, I will break my own rule and answer to A.P:

S/he said: “I don’t think anyone can prove the Mossad has been involved in “bombings and terror activities” to the extent the Islamic/jihadist organizations have. All one has to do is see who claimed RESPONSIBILITY for some of these terror activities.”

I did not state “Mossad” only but other agencies as well. A.P. your style is getting boring, can’t you do better?

Interview with Ultra Zionist, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Le Nouvel Observateur (France), Jan 15-21, 1998, p. 76* “How Jimmy Carter and I created the Mujahadin” : http://www.counterpunch.org/brzezinski.html

A Comprehensive History of Zionist Crimes (Guys on SC you have read these proofs in full): http://www.takeourworldback.com/zionistcrimes.htm

The Mossad is keeping quiet but has a history of operations in the Middle East: http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/02/18/israel.mossad/index.html

Lebanon’s Army captures Israeli Mossad ‘Terrorist Ring’: http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2006/06/lebanons_army_c.php

Reuters – The Kremlin-backed chief of Russia’s turbulent Chechnya region said his forces were fighting U.S. and British intelligence services who want to split the country apart: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE58N5S120090924

The BBC Admits That Al Qaeda Is A Hoax:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9SGqU5OvG0

BBC: Osama Bin Laden Dead or Alive Complete in Six Parts on Youtube: http://www.911blogger.com/node/22367

Mossad – The official motto: “By way of deception, thou shalt do war.”: http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/hoax.html

Mossad – The real Al-Qaeda:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz-uAZ6mlno&feature=related

Fake Osama Bin Ladin fool American Public: http://www.viewzone.com/osama.html

Shai & Norman:

Shai, you stated ” I don’t know why Israel is so much more successful at doing that (despite our Occupation of Arab lands) than Syria is.” You make it sound like the PR that Israel exerts over Washington as an honourable thing, play by the book, and Syria should do the same. These lobbies, special interest, and the politicians that get supported and make it into the ranks of the US Governments are elected to serve organizations AND not the actual interest (domestic & foreign) of the American people.

While most in the Arab world know that elections in their respective countries is a fraud, most Americans don’t know a iota of how things work.

Israel plays the game one way, and Syria plays it another way. Syria doesn’t have the history in US politics, the drive of Jewish holders of dual citizenship, and the long term expansion plans Israel has on the region. Syria doesn’t have a terrorist organisation (Mossad) that carries out operations world wide which they need to cover for. The dynamics and long term vision of Syria & Israel are much different.

Norman, I agree with you that Shai (sorry Shai) always advocates peace between Syria & Israel now (when Syria is weaker) which benefits Israel, but we all know such deals don’t have a lasting effect. As for Sarah Palin, and the puppets that will come after, the status quo will remain in favor of Israel. Basically the tune may change but the dance will remain the same and the choreographer will laugh all the way to the bank.

Dear Husam,

First, I never suggested AIPAC’s lobbying in Washington is an “honorable thing”. Personally, I rather detest their automatic support of Israel, no matter what we do. I find it one of the most anti-Israeli thing anyone can do. It serves the opposite of our long term interests. The way AIPAC goes after politicians is the reason Norman refers to it as “Israel has a hold on Congress.”

Second, I never advocated peace with Syria, while Syria is weak. This is precisely why I think the Palestinians should announce the end of their dream of a Palestine. Because at that moment, they will become infinitely stronger. And we will be standing in line, begging them to take all the Jewish settlements, and then some. I don’t think Syria should be weak. I think it isn’t weak, and because of that previous PM’s wanted to make peace with her.

Third, I don’t know what “terrorist organization” we have, and what others don’t. I imagine the Palestinians weren’t particularly happy with Hamas operatives throwing Fatah-supporters from 6-story buildings in Gaza, or dragging them through town, before executing them. We commit plenty of crimes, as I’ve noted on numerous occasions here on SC, but let’s not pretend the region has only one “terrorist organization” (Mossad).

Fourth, although I’ve heard this said a million times before, I’d like to have some better “proof” of Israel’s “long term expansion plans in the region”. If you’re talking about the West Bank, then I agree, it certainly seems Israel plans to occupy it forever (which of course would be foolish of her to do, as it would end de facto the “Jewish State”.) But if you’re suggesting Israel is still planning to reach the Euphrates River, as I’m sure some in the Arab World are told day and night, then I’d like to see some evidence of this.

Lastly, I think you’re not getting my message or I’m not delivering it well. I never said Syria should be weak, should capitulate, should become a 2nd Egypt, or should do something contrary to its own strategic interests. Just as when I call on Syria to open its doors to Israeli journalists I’m not suggesting it expose any weaknesses, same way when I say that Syria could put on a stronger PR in Washington (which I think is more open to that today, than certainly during the Bush Era), I’m again not attempting to gain an advantage for Israel. If anything, it’s the opposite. After all, what I think is in Israel’s best interests, to most in Israel seems today to be quite the opposite.

We need Obama to change his stance and his view towards Syria. He won’t do that if AIPAC can point to Syrian Scuds in Hezbollah hands. But it’s Syria that gives AIPAC that ammunition, not AIPAC that is so much stronger than Syria.

Shai:

Thank you for the clarification. Syria’s strategy of proxies and moving Scuds to them is precisely the point. They have no alternative within the cirumstances they face. I don’t think Washington is a fair play ground where one can go and practice the PR you are thinking of and neutralize the effect of AIPAC. Shai, I believe I posted a comment several days ago asking you and Yossi to “imagine” and consider if the Arabs or Muslims had a hand over Washington and I was advocating to you that Israel (or Jamaica, as you stated) do some PR. Unless Jamaica controls the media, the money, and congress then nothing can be swayed in their favor. Not even a coconut or two.

Further, Hamas doesn’t carry out operations worldwide. Hamas may have carried out operations on its own or in Israel, but comparing the two is like linking a fly to an elephant. The Mossad is proportionitely, in my opinion, more lethal and more effective than the CIA.

Israel has been an expanionist state since its creation. This a fact as much as the sky is above and the ground is below. “Biblical Borders” won’t reach the Euphrates River in your lift time. However, it will be done in stages.

Since you asked for stronger “proofs”, I encourage you to read Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years by Professor Israel Shahak. I suggest you read the full content of the link I am providing, but if you are short of time, scroll down to “Israeli Expansionism”.

There, you will find ample examples of Talmudic influence on Israeli Policy as well as the “proofs’ that indeed there is and will always be an ingrained religiously motivated expansionist plans in the works.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jewhis1.htm