The new allegations suggesting a North Korea – Syria – Iran nuclear axis are important, of course. I doubt if they will be verified, but the issues they raise should be part of ongoing negotiations.

But the outrage and howling over Syria’s and Iran’s alleged nuclear weapons programs rings very hollow, coming as they do from two of the most heavily nuclear-armed countries in the world. Even more absurd and shameful is the fearmongering over these alleged programs, coming as it does from two countries whose combined military might could turn both Syria and Iran into smoking ruins.

It’s very suspicious that these allegations about Syria and Iran and North Korea all being involved in a nuclear weapons project in Syria are only coming out now. How ironic that Syria is accused of nefarious secrecy, perhaps accurately, while Israel’s secrecy is simply overlooked, or perhaps even applauded. When did it become ok to attack a country based on suspicions and allegations that they MIGHT have a weapons program that MIGHT be intended for offensive use? As Israel’s attack on whatever it was they attacked demonstrated quite clearly, Israel has total military dominance and no need to fear Syria. Israel even boasts, it seems, that they inserted a special ops team by helicoptor into what would surely have been one of Syria’s most sensitive sites (if Israel is right that it was a nuclear weapons site), undetected, unopposed.

Hoarse cries will claim that Syria or Iran MIGHT hand off the weapon they MIGHT have to Hezbollah, or Hamas, or Al Queda. Really. If you were Assad, would you hand a nuke to Hezbollah? That’s a rhetorical question. Of course he wouldn’t. Muslim regimes have more to fear from extremists than Israel does, and that includes Iran.

It’s a little late now for Israel and the US to point to Syria’s weapons program. The time to do that was BEFORE it got blown up, whatever it was. It takes a very pernicious legal theory to claim that the burden of proof is on the attacked party, not on the attacker. Israel should have made its case for the justice and necessity of the attack on Syria IMMEDIATELY. But, of course, they could not have successfully done so, which is why they didn’t, presumably. See, they would have had to prove that the attack was both just and necessary, that Syria was on the verge of attacking Israel with a nuclear weapon. This would be a laughable claim, of course, since it’s Israel that has the ‘secret’ nuclear weapons program, the nuclear weapons stockpile, and the declared willingness to use it, and a history of military aggression.

Sadly, Obama’s rhetoric makes it clear that his claimed willingness to talk to Iran is a sham. I think it’s quite clear that he intends to attack Iran, whether directly or by proxy (Israel). So the faux right wing outrage about “appeasment” is almost certainly just a smokescreen. But it’s too bad. The US and Israel need to chill out. Simple as that. Most likely Iran will cease any nuclear weapons program it MAY have (but probably doesn’t) just as soon as it no longer feels threatened by the US and Israel. If it doesn’t, it will continue to face sanctions. Ahmadinejad would lose popularity inside Iran in five minutes if Israel and the US moderated their stances. He has screwed up the economy and his people know it. There’s nothing they would like more than some “change we need”. And even if Iran did not cease developing weapons, that wouldn’t be the end of the world. Guess what? There are a lot of countries that have nukes that aren’t, or haven’t been in the past, our bestest friends.
Believe it or not, THE SKY ISN’T FALLING!!

Commonsense indicates that neither Syria nor Iran are likely to develope nuclear weapons any time soon because it’s too hard to do, and not worth the various kinds of costs. What we need are intensive negotiations, not threats, and not hysterical fear mongering. Obama says he’ll reach out his hand if Iran unclenches its fist. Well, that’s a good idea, but in order to do so, Obama would have to unclench his own fist.

Commonsense indicates that neither Syria nor Iran are likely to develope nuclear weapons any time soon because it’s too hard to do, and not worth the various kinds of costs.

Epppie,

Apparently, most people in the in nuclear proliferation business do not share your opinion.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/19/iran-iaea-united-nations-nuclear-weapon

There is only one concession, which is to abide by the Security Council resolution. This should be voluntary because this resolution protects Syria as well as others.

EPPPIE,

I doubt Obama will attack Iran – if he did, he’d lose in an instant his entire “credit” with every nation on earth. Israel apparently cannot attack Iran using fighter jets without U.S. support (airspace, fueling, etc.) So our only option would be to attack with missiles. Some mention use of the Jericho missiles. But clearly such an attack would bring about a harsh response not only by Iran (thousands of missiles upon Israel), but likely also by Hezbollah and Hamas. Maybe Syria, though Bashar has already indicated his country would not join in (but who knows). It is doubtful Netanyahu’s government would last long, if thousands of rockets would land atop Israeli towns and cities, destroying much, and killing many. He knows that, and he won’t risk it.

But more importantly, everyone knows the game, but few talk about it. So far in modern history, there has been only a single case of a nation that aspired to nuclear capabilities, and was stopped by force. That nation, of course, is Iraq, in 1981. But in Iraq’s case, there was a single reactor, at Osirak. Iran has likely learned that lesson perhaps even better than Israel. If indeed Iran is seeking “a bomb”, what are the odds it is doing so only above ground? Or only in installations seen by satellites? Or only using a few well-known scientists? Or only using Iranian-enriched uranium? It doesn’t take a genius to realize that IF Iran wanted a bomb, and had the technology, it will get it. Israeli strikes against Iranian installations will (at best) only delay things. But, perhaps it might also speed it up!

What if as you suggested, Iran might be willing to slow down or even stop production if the U.S. would guarantee its safety? And suddenly, Israeli jets or missiles destroy Iranian reactors and other installations? Now there’s every motivation in the world to acquire nuclear capabilities. And if indeed there is a “fanatic regime” in Tehran (something I of course do not believe), then when are they likely to use such a bomb – before Israel attacks them, or after?

The one question I always love asking my own countrymen, and this is the same for an Iranian nuclear program, as well as a Syrian one, or a Libyan, etc. It is: “Give me one reason why (Iran, etc.) should NOT have a nuclear program”. Usually the response is a blank stare… followed by a blinking of the eyes… followed by a change in topic. Israelis know that if we have a right to nuclear technology, then of course everyone else in the region does as well. They (Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, KSA, Jordan, Kuwait, you name it) just delayed things by 30-40 years. But the motivation was always there from the moment the Dimona reactor was erected.

We in Israel are afraid that a nuclear Iran would serve as “umbrella” to ongoing terrorism against Israelis. But we rarely consider the Arab world’s concern that a nuclear Israel has always been our “umbrella” to ongoing occupation, subjugation, and suffocation of the Palestinian people. And if we were (are) crazy enough to do that, as well as a few wars in between, some military operations into Lebanon and Gaza, etc., what might we do next?

xxx

Shai,
I wish Israel has two of you , we would have had peace.

Yossi is not in Israel.

Norman,

Remember, we can only have peace if people like you are on the other side as well… And, Yossi just landed in Israel… 🙂 (He’s here on a visit with his family).

Shai,

Give him my regards , I feel that we are more powerfull now with both of you there.

Shai, whenever I read sane comments from an Israeli I always struggle with the same paradox: if this person is really sane, and honest and intelligent on top of that, why the hell is he still there? Sane and intelligent Israelis are leaving the stolen land (even if they are not honest). Leaving in droves and going to germany or the US.
Would it not be a badge of honor even at this late hour–after 60 years of crimes against humanity–to join the likes of Gilad Atzmon and be able to tell your children and/or grandchildren that you left voluntarily? That in the end you realized that to do otherwise would have been dishonest and criminal?
Just wondering.

People who are really concerned about peace in the Middle East should applaud Mr. Asghari’s courage whose tip was instrumental in preventing the rogue regime in Syria from acquiring WMD’s. Furthermore, Israel should be thanked by the whole world for taking the burden of destroying this Iranian financed, Korean built Syrian facility that would only serve to destroy Syria and its people and perhaps more had it been allowed to fully operate unnoticed.
On the other hand Mr. Bolton is now vindicated as a visionary and a man of courage who was behaving in the proper manner that would preserve world peace. Nuclear weapons are not toys to be handed over to kids such as the governments of Iran and Syria. Those who used to revel at criticizing Mr. Bush and his policies should now think twice before voicing their ridiculous liberalism and so-called nuclear egalitarian world view. The only fault that Mr. Bush may have committed was perhaps his bluntness and outward zeal in defending principles that every one now has to face and come up with solutions for. Would diplomacy work? Let’s wait and see. It’s worth a try in order to alleviate the nonsense brought about by so-called peace seekers who have no clue whatsoever on how to achieve peace. Perhaps those who comment about this desire for peace should read comments here on SC of someone whose name begins by N. He purports to want peace but continues to proclaim a desire to build larger armies and begin a war to win back what he considers his land – the Golan. The only sanity in his logic is of course strength is required peace. Peace is not given as a reward to the meek.

After diplomacy fails, Mr. Obama will have harder decisions to make than worry about the sway of so-called public opinion against him or in his favor.

Majid, when you say “the rogue” regime in Syria, what exactly do you think “rogue” means? Or do you use it because you vaguely remember others using it in some context or other to mean something not nice…?
If we do not adhere by the same dictionary we’ll make communication rather hard. It’s like when Israel uses the term “right of return” to mean the very opposite of what it means to the rest of the world: they mean the ‘right’ of those who never lived there to come there…
But when you say: “Israel should be thanked by the whole world for taking the burden of destroying this Iranian financed, Korean built Syrian facility” you deserve some sort of commendation for concision–you managed to pack very tightly 3 lies in one single sentence. Is it something they taught you in class or can you take hasbara courses by correspondence too?

Majid , look right look left ,you will find that the source of most of our calamities is this zionist entity.All the evil we have ,extremism ,dictatorships use the zionist pretext in order to exist.

Shami said, “Majid , look right look left ,you will find that the source of most of our calamities is this zionist entity.All the evil we have ,extremism ,dictatorships use the zionist pretext in order to exist.”

I cannot agree with you more. I’m glad you see it this way. I hope more Syrians share your views. Regards.

But so wasnt your opinion above ,you took an unacceptable pro zionist stance.Be careful next time.
Are you jewish of Syrian origin?

SHAMI, “But so wasnt your opinion above ,you took an unacceptable pro zionist stance.Be careful next time.
Are you jewish of Syrian origin?”

Shami, I believed fully in what I said in my comment #9 regardless whether you find it pro-zionist or not. Any person with minimal reasoning skills would understand the principles upon which my beliefs rest in that comment. I don’t look at it your way from a pro or anti whatever point of view. I found positive elements in your comment #10 and acknowledged those elements in my comment #11. Your realization of the dependence of the corrupt regimes on what you call “zionist entity” necessitates that you look for faults within rather than outside your country. Israel is in the area for a reason and you have to acknowledge that. Start by correcting the faults that are in your country.

I’m neither Jew nor Syrian.

Majid said:
1. “Israel should be thanked by the whole world for [bombing a site in Syria without provocation].”
Oh, Majid, why be so niggardly with praise? The list of reasons is a lot longer: attacking and devastating Lebanon twice, ethnic cleansing Palestine, massacres in Jenin, Gaza, etc, etc

2.”Any person with minimal reasoning skills would understand the principles upon which my beliefs rest.”
You got that right, Majid. A babe in arms would get it–two words summarize it: rabid zionism.

3. “Israel is in the area for a reason.”
To destroy the ME and then ride it roughshod unopposed, pillaging and killing as in Palestine?

Shami

You said: “Majid , look right look left, you will find that the source of most of our calamities is this zionist entity. All the evil we have, extremism, dictatorships use the zionist pretext in order to exist.”

Some in my country say the same about the Arabs. If only the “Arab Entity” didn’t exist, all our evils and extremism would disappear. So how do you get out of this predicament? Fight it out? Or change your conceptualization of the other?

Dear Shai,ask them who is the occupier in Palestine ?
For me despite the evil done by the first zionists ,their sons should not pay for the crimes of their ancestors,so i consider you as palestinian ,but you should agree that we are in need of a reformation of the nature of the Israeli state ,which is product of 19th century european ideologies ,Zionism is a siter ideology of Nazism and Fascism.A jewish Island inside an Arab ocean can not antagonize its environment for ever.

Shami,

I actually think it’s the other way around – our founding fathers should not have to pay for the crimes committed by us today… I don’t think there’s a doubt in anyone’s mind that Israel after 1967 is very different than before. It’s one thing to claim that 600,000-800,000 Palestinian were forced to become refugees as a consequence of war (an argument I of course reject), but it’s another thing to claim The Occupation over the past 40 years has been a “defensive” policy, meant merely to protect the Jewish state from the Arabs. Hence settlements, hence Berlin-walls, hence Jewish-only roads, barbed wire, prisons, operations, targeted assassinations, etc. You know how I feel about Israel’s part.

But I hope you’re not suggesting that all the evils that are and have taken place within Arab nations, are a direct consequence of Zionism. What does the occupation of Palestine have anything to do with freedom of speech in Saudi Arabia or Syria?

I do agree that Israel will need to change over the next number of decades, if it is to survive as a democratic state in this region (not even as a “Jewish state”). The ideal thing, would be to one day have a one-state solution, or my infamous UME (United Middle East). But until we get there, much water will have to pass in the Jordan River, as the saying goes. The question is what to do in the interim period. What’s supposed to take place in the process? Obviously, with each day that passes, and with each new settlement being built or expanded, the two-state solution becomes less and less likely.

But as usual people in my country always tend to wake up too late, and I wonder what we’ll “wake up to” in 10 years time, or much earlier. Will it be another huge regional war (21st-century style, thousands of missiles, etc.), or an internal civil war in Israel?

SHAMI said, “but you should agree that we are in need of a reformation of the nature of the Israeli state ,which is product of 19th century european ideologies ,Zionism is a siter ideology of Nazism and Fascism.A jewish Island inside an Arab ocean can not antagonize its environment for ever.”

SHAMI is your Arab nationalism a very modern up to date ideology that needs not to be reformed and that is actually serving the true aspirations of you and your Arab brethren? Is it always the other person who needs to agree with you? Is not Arab nationalism, and particularly so-called Syrian Nationalists and their offshoots the Baathists and all the rest that followed, more of a sister of Fascism and particularly Nazism? Isn’t Nationalism in the Arab world as an ideology a concept imported from Europe by so-called intellectuals which happened at the junction in history between the nineteenth and twentieth century? Isn’t Arab nationalism in fact alien to the fundamental beliefs of the Arabs and what they consider as their glorious history?

ariadna said:

To destroy the ME and then ride it roughshod unopposed, pillaging and killing as in Palestine?

Ariadna,

Arab foreign policy is totally transparent: attack Israel enough to provoke a reprisal, and then point fingers at Israel to accuse her of “destroying the ME”.

For this reason, those who despise Israel won’t admit to any Arab aggression against Israel. Perhaps Majid isn’t buying such foolishness.

Hey, Majid, be proud to be a zionist! What’s not to like about Israel?
Look at its accomplishments:
Israeli forces shot five demonstrators with rubber-coated metal bullets in the West Bank village of Bil’in, which held its weekly protest against the illegal Israeli separation wall on Friday. After the Friday prayer, Bil’in residents were joined by international and Israeli supporters in marching towards the Israeli barrier, which cuts across the village’s land. The protesters carried Palestinain flags and banners calling on Israel to stop building illegal settlements in the West Bank and seizing land.

On Wednesday the 11th of March, a number of Hebron Israeli settlers pelted Palestinian children (aged 4 to 8 years) and two international activists with stones. The incident took place during a settler-organized dancing event close to Avraham Avinu Settlement, presumably as part of Purim festivities. The Israeli soldiers on guard at a military post within 30 meters surveyed the disturbance but provided no assistance.
Tristan Anderson from California USA, 37 years old, has been taken to Israeli hospital Tel Hashomer, near Tel Aviv. Anderson is unconscious and has been bleeding heavily from the nose and mouth. He sustained a large hole in his forehead where he was struck by the canister. He is currently being operated on.
According to witness Teah Lunqvist from Sweden, a fellow activist in the International Solidarity Movement, “Tristan was shot by the new tear-gas canisters that can be shot up to 500m. I ran over as I saw someone had been shot, while the Israeli forces continued to fire tear-gas at us. When an ambulance came, the Israeli soldiers refused to allow the ambulance through the checkpoint just outside the village. After 5 minutes of arguing with the soldiers, the ambulance passed.”

The International Solidarity Movement reported that the Israeli army began using a high velocity tear gas canister in December 2008. The black canister, labeled in Hebrew as “40mm bullet special/long range,” can shoot over 400 meters. The gas canister does not make a noise when fired or emit a smoke tail. A combination of the canister’s high velocity and silence is extremely dangerous and has caused numerous injuries, including a Palestinian male whose leg was broken in January 2009.

ARIADNA said, “2.”Any person with minimal reasoning skills would understand the principles upon which my beliefs rest.”
You got that right, Majid. A babe in arms would get it–two words summarize it: rabid zionism.”

I specifically meant people with minimal resoning skills in that comment. It was not meant for a ‘genius’ like yourself. Next time I’m at Toys’R US, I’ll look for a nuclear toy and send it as a gift for you to play.

Akbar Palace said:
“Arab foreign policy is totally transparent: attack Israel enough to provoke a reprisal, and then point fingers at Israel to accuse her of “destroying the ME”.

Are you a stand up comedian in Tel Aviv? What “Arab foreign policy” are you babbling about and why are you using the word “attack” in a sentence whose subject is not Israel? Do you really believe that Goyim are all dumb? Is that what your hasbara handler told you? The whole world knows who the attacker is and has always been, my little hasbara sheep. Let me make it easier for you: which of the Arab countries is currently occupying land belonging to Lebanon, Syria and Palestine? Hmmmm…. too tough for you? the answer is: NONE. Israel is.

You also say (or maybe copy whatever ziocheat sheet was given to you):
“For this reason, those who despise Israel won’t admit to any Arab aggression against Israel.”
I have more distressing news for you, ziopet: Any and all thinking and moral human beings on earth despise Israel. It is a tumor grown on the Arab body of the ME, honeycakes. It is a racist apartheid, a militarist invader, a land thief, a war criminal and–the reason why any thinking American should despise it–a noxious parasite that will crumble (Inshallah) when removed from the American tit it has been sucking for decades.
I wonder if my personal feelings for the artificial state you have been brainwashed to worship are too vague for you to grasp. If still confused, let me know.

ariadna said:

Any and all thinking and moral human beings on earth despise Israel.

I never thought of anti-semites as being “moral human beings”. That’s not to say one can’t be critical of Israel. But when Israel is singled out to be sole cause of “destroying the ME”, it caused me to wonder about your morals.

For example, it is well known the ISM has worked with terror organizations and in many instances, have hidden terrorists with blood on their hands.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=22&x_article=769

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072820.html

Another 30 years like these
By Zvi Bar’el

It’s hard to say about the peace between Israel and Egypt that “time flies when you’re having fun.” This week will mark 30 years since the signing of the peace agreement, and Egypt is still suspect. It never passed the test of “tourist peace”; masses of Egyptians never came to vacation on Tel Aviv’s beaches. Israeli authors do not appear at Egyptian book fairs, and the Israeli embassy in Cairo is closely monitored, not only by Egyptian intelligence but also by intellectuals, journalists and reporters ready to pounce on any Egyptian “spy” who penetrates the besieged structure to ask for a visa to Israel. Professional associations forbid their members from visiting Israel, and when an Egyptian parliamentarian wants to insult his colleague he tells him that “even the Israelis would not do what you are doing.”

This is a peace that from the start was based not on love but on the slogan that has remained so important for Israel: “No more war. No more bloodshed.” A peace not only free of war but also from the threat of war. Because of this peace, the Arab world’s leading country found itself isolated by the Arabs, but maintained its diplomatic ties even when Israel occupied another Arab country, Lebanon, killed and wounded thousands of Palestinians and destroyed hundreds of homes over the past 30 years. And it has kept these ties going even when Israel’s current foreign minister-designate, Avigdor Lieberman, called for bombing the Aswan Dam, and when Israel embarked on a war in the Gaza Strip.

One can only guess Israel’s reaction if some country did to the Jewish people even one tenth of what Israel has done to the Palestinians. And after all, Egypt still lauds Anwar Sadat as “the hero of war and peace,” and President Hosni Mubarak continues to challenge extremist Arab leaders by saying that anyone who wants to wage war on Israel should do so from his own territory.
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Egypt took the strategic decision not to play this game. True, the Egyptian ambassador may not participate in the 30-year anniversary celebrations because Lieberman is about to become foreign minister, and Egyptians prefer to celebrate the victory of the October War and not the day that peace was signed. But it is only in Egypt where the head of Israel’s Shin Bet security service and the head of the military wing of Hamas have been within touching distance of each other.

Cold or hot, this is a more successful peace than that between India and Pakistan, Syria and Lebanon or Egypt and Syria. All maintain full diplomatic ties, replete with a deep sense of revulsion for each other.

This is a strategic peace between states and not between nations. A peace of interests, the kind that suits precisely the threats that Israel has tried to neutralize.

Its test, like that of the peace with Jordan and the peace Israel aspires to have with Syria, is not in the “quantity” of normalization but in the number of border incidents that are prevented. A peace where the meeting of intelligence chiefs is considered by both sides to be a greater achievement than another meeting in Cairo or Jerusalem between an Israeli and an Egyptian author.

The expression “cold peace” has carved out a place in Israel’s diplomatic and public lexicon.

But it is interesting to speculate how Israel would respond if a million Egyptian tourists visited Tel Aviv’s beaches, hitting on Israeli girls and flooding the hotels, and the Egyptian dialect was heard in every corner of the malls of Rishon Letzion or Ga’ash.

And what would happen to that same peace if hundreds of thousands of Egyptians tried to take advantage of it to work in Israel, or if Egyptian businessmen bought strategically important Israeli companies? Are you feeling a little nervous already? Yes, we want a warm peace with Egypt, but at a distance. Tourists from Scandinavia? Yes. French apartment buyers? Sure. Just not Egyptians – Arabs, I mean.

It seems that both sides enjoy the peace’s coolness. In Israel it serves as an excuse for lazy diplomacy because, after all, it’s not worth giving up territory for a “cold peace” like this. For Egypt, this “cold” grants it the appropriate degree of distance that allows it to enjoy the status of “respectability” in the Middle East. All we want is to have the opportunity to reach another 30 years of this sort of peace.

Ariadna,
You forget the latest terrorist attack on the peaceful Israel by Palestinians who dare to celebrate; what a bunch of terrorist dancer those Palestinians are, they must be using their ‘anti-Semitism’ to occupy more land from Israel!
(right AP?)

Israel police ban Arab culture day in Jerusalem
“JERUSALEM – Israeli authorities broke up a series of Palestinian cultural events in Jerusalem on Saturday, disrupting a children’s march and bursting balloons at a schoolyard celebration in a crackdown that underscored the emotional battle over control of the disputed holy city”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090321/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

In case you don’t know these sites, check them out, they are good resousrce for ‘Goy’ like us:
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/

Ariadna,

I liked the “ziopet”… But describing Israel as “a noxious parasite that will crumble.” is probably not very “constructive”.

JAD,

You didn’t respond to my response (on 1R1F)… Was the purpose of the architecture-solutions to show the absurdity, or was it real (even though futuristic)?

Shai said: “Some in my country say the same about the Arabs. If only the “Arab Entity” didn’t exist”

1. When you say “my country” do you mean: Russia? the Ukraine? the US? because, my ziopet, Palestine is definitely not your country.
You have turned it into your STATE by bloodshed, but that’s not the same thing. Even a low IQ zionist knows it. You’re a smart boy, aren’t you? Smart enough to have found this site and to be able to copy zioprop into your messages.
2. The zionist entity is a reality: it is the parasite (living off the US taxpayer money) military state based on apartheid and racism called “Israel” after a group of tribes that lived in Palestine more than 2,ooo years ago and which have no connection to the Khazars from Europe you represent.
You cannot compare the zionist entity–a foreign transplanted tumor in an insane experiment–to the Arab nations who have been living there for centuries.

Akbar Palace said: I never thought of anti-semites as being “moral human beings”. That’s not to say one can’t be critical of Israel. But when Israel is singled out to be sole cause of “destroying the ME”, it caused me to wonder about your morals.

If criticizing the rogue nuclear state (not adhereing to any int’l treaties)–THE ONLY NUCLEAR STATE IN THE ME– and singling it out as it deserves– a state occupying territories stolen from three nations, one practicing ethnic cleansing and committing war crimes EVERY DAY means to you being anti-semitic then you are definitely saying that not only Israelis but ALL JEWS in the world are war criminals just like you. It is a view increasingly shared by more and more people because of the aggressive support of Israel by Jews in diaspora, especially Jewish lobbies and terrorist Jewish organizations in America like ADL and JDL but I am amazed to see a rabid zionist like you agreeing.

Akbar Palace: “For example, it is well known the ISM has worked with terror organizations and in many instances, have hidden terrorists with blood on their hands.”

What? ISM had ties to the Israeli government and to IOF? No way? prove it, hasbara breath.

Alex,
Welcome back , Shami, What is your response to your friend Majid , I like to read that.

SHAI said:
” describing Israel as “a noxious parasite that will crumble.” is probably not very “constructive”.

Who said anything about “constructive” when criticizing South Africa?
I realize that as a zionist you are brainwashed into believing that Israel has a “right to exist” but any thinking person knows that’s a crock of … what euphemism may I use?… let’s say a crock of sharon. No state in the world from the invention of the political entity called “state” has ever had (or currently has) an inherent “right to exist.” Decent human beings realize that the only solution there is the dismantling of the state of Israel. That’s what Ahmadinejad predicted would happen, although you, zionists try to confuse people claiming he wants the Jews there to be killed.
The state of Israel is the only state in the world that does not belong to its people–“citizens” or native inhabitants pushed into the open-air prison which is Gaza–but “legally” belongs to citizens of any country in the world thatr the Rabbinate recognizes as Jews. They can come there from the Ukraine, Russia, Argentina, the US and get their “citizenship” instantaneously. Such a state must be dismantled.
If describing it as a “noxious parasite” offends you, tell me which paret of it is false. It IS a parasite. I as an American who is forced to pay for you to be there and kill local inhabitants say so. Is it noxious? Yes, of course it is–not only did it not “make the dessert bloom”–the old zionist lie, but it destroyed Palestine, the land, the olive orchards, the people, and works hard at destroying that people’s culture. It has repeatedly invaded neighboring countries and killed thousands upon thousands of innocent people. It is noxious even to Jews worldwide because zionists like you keep telling people that Israel equals Jews.

JAD said:
You forget the latest terrorist attack on the peaceful Israel by Palestinians who dare to celebrate; what a bunch of terrorist dancer those Palestinians are, they must be using their ‘anti-Semitism’ to occupy more land from Israel!

Yes, of course you are right. Another way to tell who is peaceful and who is the aggressor is to ask how many Israelis are in Palestinian prisons. None. See how peaceful they are? But how many Palestinians are in Israeli prisons? Upwards of 10,000! See how aggressive Palestinians are that so many of them end up in jail? Even worse, Palestinian children are aggressive too! That’s why there are almost 900 of them in Israeli prisons. Do you know what Palestinian children do? It’s outrageous! They throw stones and some of them have sharp edges that can ruin the paint on those beautiful Israeli tanks and bulldozers–thank us Zionists, we, the American people pay for them.

I think that this is important to everybody in the Middle East.

w w w . t u r k i s h w e e k l y . n e t

Turkey, Syria cooperate on water front

With water in the Middle East being depleted and demand growing fast, Turkey and Syria have put their differences aside and begun findings ways to share water equitably through innovative projects.

One project both countries agreed in principle to develop is the Asi Friendship Dam, to be built on the Asi (Orontes) River on the border between Syria and Turkey. The Asi River originates in Syria and flows through Turkey’s Hatay province before spilling into the Mediterranean Sea.

A Turkish team of technical experts will go to Syria this weekend to start work on mapping, with feasibility studies soon to follow, said sources from the State Waterworks Authority (DSÄ°) who requested to remain anonymous.

Although the details of the dam will be ironed out in the feasibility study, it is expected to be approximately 15 meters high and with a capacity of 110 million cubic meters of water storage. Of that total, 40 million cubic meters will be used to prevent flooding and the rest for energy production and irrigation, the same sources told Today’s Zaman at the Fifth World Water Forum, an international conference on water-related matters taking place in Ä°stanbul this year and being attended by around 29,000.

The idea to build a shared dam on the Asi River has been discussed over the years between Turkey and Syria, but political differences between the countries were holding them back. After Syria expelled outlawed Kurdish Workers’ Party (PKK) leader Abdullah Öcalan in 1999, relations between the two countries began to normalize. Relations became much warmer when Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip ErdoÄŸan visited Damascus in 2004. Preparations for the 5th World Water Forum accelerated communications on the much disputed water issue not only between the two countries but also with Iraq.

On March 22, 2007, Energy and Natural Resources Minister Hilmi Güler came together with Syrian Waterworks Minister Nader al-Bunni and Iraqi Water Resources Minister Abdul Latif Rashid in Turkey’s Antalya province. The ministers decided that periodic meetings of the Joint Technical Committee (JTC), held between 1982 and 1992 before being severed completely, will be conducted.

Another JTC meeting was conducted in Syria on May 7-11, 2007, followed by a tripartite ministers meeting on Jan. 10-11 of last year in Syria.

The meetings were not free of problems as disputes over the Euphrates River, which originates in Turkey, resurfaced when Syrians wanted to build a water diversion structure and a pumping station on the river where it crosses from Turkey into Syria.

A high-level source from the DSÄ° said Damascus wants to build the structure for its own irrigation purposes but that there needs to be a protocol between the two countries before it is built. A similar protocol is in place between Syria and Iraq. The issue has been taken up by the Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Ankara’s reservations were passed on to Damascus.

“Syria has not taken a step forward on the issue, but we said we want to be included if they want to go ahead with the project,” the same source said and added that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has been involved because the Syrian project might cause the river to overflow, leading to uncertainty as to where the border is.

“There is a real distinction between the upstream and downstream position. Those upstream hold a lot of power. In Turkey that power is accentuated because Syria and Iraq are very dry countries,” said Mark Smith, head of the water program of the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN), a body funded by states and nongovernmental organizations.

Rivers shared by more than one country provide about 60 percent of the world’s freshwater. There are 260 international river basins in the world, covering half of the earth’s surface and are home to 40 percent of the world’s population.

* “Upstream countries hold more power’

The Tigris and Euphrates rivers, which constitute almost 30 percent of Turkey’s freshwater potential, are among the world’s most famous trans-boundary rivers. Turkey contributes 31 billion cubic meters of water to the Euphrates, about 89 percent of the annual flow of 35 billion cubic meters, according to the DSÄ°’s “Turkey Water Report,” released in 2009. The remaining 11 percent comes from Syria. Iraq makes no contribution to the flow, as stated by the report.

Another issue of contention between Turkey and Syria is about how much water Syria is going to get from the Euphrates. According to agreements, Turkey is supposed to release no less than 500 cubic meters per second of water monthly. Because of droughts, Turkey could not comply with the requirement, but will do so starting in April, DSI officials said.

“Trans-boundary water problems between Turkey and Syria stem from the fact that Turkey is an upstream country,” said Sedat Laciner, head of the Ankara-based International Strategic Research Organization (ISRO / USAK).

“There is enough water in the river, but there are problems related to the release of the water,” he said. The release of water is also an issue because there are large dams on the Euphrates.

Laciner added there are no such problems between Turkey and Iraq because Iraq has more water available for its population and that the River Tigris, which originates in Turkey, flows unimpeded as there are no large dams holding large amounts of water.

In the case of the Tigris, 52 percent of the total average flow of 49 billion cubic meters comes from Turkey while Iraq contributes the rest, with no Syrian water draining into it.

“The question countries must face is are they interested only in holding all the water themselves and living in a destabilized region, or do they wish to share the water and cooperate?” Smith said at the 5th World Water Forum.

In the case of Turkey and its Middle Eastern neighbors, the second option is true, Laciner told Today’s Zaman. Some of the water-related problems are due to the older technology used by Syria and Turkey is offering new technology and know-how in that regard.

DSI officials confirmed several cooperation projects between Turkey and Syria. In order to control the irregular water flow of the Asi River, Turkey suggested establishing an early warning system to prevent floods.

At another JTC meeting on Feb. 23-24 of this year in Ä°stanbul, officials decided that they will share past, present and future information regarding meteorological patterns and water quality in the Tigris and Euphrates basins. The next JTC meeting is set to take place in Syria in the coming months.

Turkey has also participated in educational projects in 2008 for Syrian and Iraqi technical groups on dams and irrigation techniques. Those will continue this year as well.

In addition, officials from the three countries will continue to develop joint water projects. “Turkey’s three-level plan is open to negotiation. How much land is there? How much water is there? And who needs how much? After this is determined, Turkey will not refrain from compromise,” said Süleyman Demirel, a former Turkish president and former head of the DSI, while addressing participants of the 5th World Water Forum.

http://www.usak.org.tr
http://www.turkishweekly.net
http://www.usakgundem.com

JAD-man,

Do you think Ariadna has any Israeli friends? 🙂

No Ariadna probably doesn’t have any “Israeli” friends, nor do I have any “Israeli” friends nor do I want any. People, Zionists specifically, insinuate that we have to have “Israeli” friends in order to have any worth, or in order to be taken seriously. I hold the view that anyone who supports the existence of the cancerous state of “Israel” and who promotes the idea of a Jewish state on land whose natives are non-Jews is no friend of mine, nor do I ever want to be friends with them. This whole fluff talk of “peace,” “coexistence”, and “friendship” is all a bunch of nonsense that aims to legitimize the parasitic entity occupying Palestinian land.

Shai,
I don’t think Ariadna knows much about Shai the ‘human’ or the great ‘peace defender’ she/he read and see facts and news about ‘israel’ the history is there where it tells us what happen and how ‘israel’ created in the region.
And let’s face it; we as human will always stands with what we beleive is fair and right.
I understand her/his point not in the way of wanting Israel to disapear but in the way that JUST need to be given back to who the deserve it, in this case the Palestinians.
I’m not sure if you read Haruki Nuraksmi strong speech when he got the Israeli awards for writing. If you didn’t Please search for it, I’ll try to post it later for others to read, it’s a must read.

I’ll answer your other question on your site later.

Ariadna,
I agree with your points about the Israeli occupations and unjustify and painful aggression, sadness and distruction they are causing but at the same time the distruction of Israel wouldn’t make me happy either because I know that is wrong thing to as well, what I want is justice and fairness not revenge or blame because I know that both of the latest are the reasons of what we are facing right now.

Haruki Murakami
Sorry for that but u’m using my Iphone and I couldn’t correct the name

Jad, when you say “the distruction of Israel wouldn’t make me happy” do you mean that the “distruction” of South Africa as an apartheid state made you sad? How about the “distruction” of the 3rd Reich?
Why shouldn’t the dismantling of a criminal state be a legitimate aspiration for any decent human being?
We are talking about a STATE–one that has not a constitution (that would make it difficult to pass laws legalizing torture or ethnic cleansing or apartheid) but the famous Basic Law. It is thus illegal for a Palestinian living in the noxious state to sell his house to a non-Jew. Wrap your mind around that one, will you?
Israel must be dismantled as a state–the only solution is the creation of one state on the land that was once Palestine (and will be again), that belongs to its citizens, its inhabitants, those living there now AND those pushed into exile or into refugee camps and whose citizens all have equal rights. Israelis who profess to love democracy should love that, don’t you think? If they don’t, they are free to leave.
To the zionists who are asking if I have “Israeli” friends, I am proud to say that not one I know personally still lives there. The Israelis who are to be admired: Illan Pappe, Gilad Atzmon and others have voted with their feet. Even once convinced Zionists, and big shots in the parasite state, like Avrum Borg, have seen the light and fled to better pastures. In fact Burg has said that only idiots remain….he was referring to the zionists, of course, the Palestinians will always remain. Lump it, zionists. Israel was a failed experiment. Too bad so many Palestinians (and Lebanese) had to die because of these war criminals.

Ariadna,
I would be very happy to see the dismemtal of the aparthed system in Israel, this whole racist system is a disgrace on every individual, every organization and every state that support it’s existence over Palestinian suffering.
I was reffering to the physical destruction some people are calling for. I should’ve been more clear.
I still agree with you though

JAD:
“I would be very happy to see the dismemtal of the aparthed system in Israel, this whole racist system is a disgrace on every individual, every organization and every state that support it’s existence over Palestinian suffering.”

Good, then we are in agreement. Dismantling the apartheid system is synonymous with the dismantling of “the state for Jews.”

Jad also said: “I was reffering to the physical destruction some people are calling for.”
I have not read any statement by any advocate of Palestinian rights, here or anywhere at all, who supports committing ZIONIST acts of atrocity against the Israelis. In fact the only ones talking about it are the zionists who howl that their “enemies” want to “push them into the sea”—funny that: the only people pushed into the sea are the Gazans.
Playing victims while committing war crimes is a zionist specialty

Shai: “I do agree that Israel will need to change over the next number of decades, if it is to survive as a democratic state in this region (not even as a “Jewish state”).”

A couple of corrections:
I don’t believe your Israel has a couple of decades left. For one thing the parasite state cannot stand on its own hind legs and the American tit it has been sucking all this time is running dry.
Israel has never been a “democratic state.” To believe that you must be a brainwashed zionist incapable of independent thought and judgement or completely ignorant of the meaning of the word “democratic.” So there is no question of “surviving as a democratic state”–but as surviving as a militaristic colonial ethnocracy with theocratic underpinnings.
When it finally collapses, this sad experiment will need lots of museums of the Ziocaust. This video should be part of it so that future generations can shudder in horror and ask themselves how was it possible for the American people to support it financially, militarily and diplomatically. They, I hope, will be ashamed of their ancestry:

Aim to the face and shoot

Haruki Murakami speech

http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2009/02/20/haruki_murakami/

“Please do allow me to deliver one very personal message. It is something that I always keep in mind while I am writing fiction. I have never gone so far as to write it on a piece of paper and paste it to the wall: rather, it is carved into the wall of my mind, and it goes something like this:

“Between a high, solid wall and an egg that breaks against it, I will always stand on the side of the egg.”

Yes, no matter how right the wall may be and how wrong the egg, I will stand with the egg. Someone else will have to decide what is right and what is wrong; perhaps time or history will decide. If there were a novelist who, for whatever reason, wrote works standing with the wall, of what value would such works be?

What is the meaning of this metaphor? In some cases, it is all too simple and clear. Bombers and tanks and rockets and white phosphorus shells are that high, solid wall. The eggs are the unarmed civilians who are crushed and burned and shot by them.

This is not all, though. It carries a deeper meaning. Think of it this way. Each of us is, more or less, an egg. Each of us is a unique, irreplaceable soul enclosed in a fragile shell. This is true of me, and it is true of each of you. And each of us, to a greater or lesser degree, is confronting a high, solid wall. The wall has a name: it is “the System.” The System is supposed to protect us, but sometimes it takes on a life of its own, and then it begins to kill us and cause us to kill others — coldly, efficiently, systematically.

I have only one reason to write novels, and that is to bring the dignity of the individual soul to the surface and shine a light upon it. The purpose of a story is to sound an alarm, to keep a light trained on the System in order to prevent it from tangling our souls in its web and demeaning them. I fully believe it is the novelist’s job to keep trying to clarify the uniqueness of each individual soul by writing stories — stories of life and death, stories of love, stories that make people cry and quake with fear and shake with laughter. This is why we go on, day after day, concocting fictions with utter seriousness.

My father died last year at the age of 90. He was a retired teacher and a part-time Buddhist priest. When he was in graduate school, he was drafted into the army and sent to fight in China. As a child born after the war, I used to see him every morning before breakfast offering up long, deeply felt prayers at the Buddhist altar in our house. One time I asked him why he did this, and he told me he was praying for the people who had died in the battlefield. He was praying for all the people who died, he said, both ally and enemy alike. Staring at his back as he knelt at the altar, I seemed to feel the shadow of death hovering around him.

My father died, and with him he took his memories, memories that I can never know. But the presence of death that lurked about him remains in my own memory. It is one of the few things I carry on from him, and one of the most important.

I have only one thing I hope to convey to you today. We are all human beings, individuals transcending nationality and race and religion, fragile eggs faced with a solid wall called the System. To all appearances, we have no hope of winning. The wall is too high, too strong — and too cold. If we have any hope of victory at all, it will have to come from our believing in the utter uniqueness and irreplaceability of our own and others’ souls and from the warmth we gain by joining souls together.

Take a moment to think about this. Each of us possesses a tangible, living soul. The System has no such thing. We must not allow the System to exploit us. We must not allow the System to take on a life of its own. The System did not make us: We made the System. That is all I have to say to you.”

Wha-ha-ha! What a rust bucket! Not even the Somali pirates would take her-gift-wrapped!

Ariadna said:

Another way to tell who is peaceful and who is the aggressor is to ask how many Israelis are in Palestinian prisons.

Ariadna,

I think the most acccurate “way to tell who is peaceful” is to see how parents bring up their children.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/PalestinianChildAbuse/

Palestinian parents are doing this to their children too:
http://www.dominionpaper.ca/images/956
I’m sure you like the ‘class room’ Israelis ‘custom made’ it for them, right?

Is that your kid AP?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_a-Su2SAnGYU/ScQGmJneV1I/AAAAAAAAJU0/snnpooNbPQk/s1600-h/rafah-cartoon.jpg
Oh, sorry, I forget, you are not an Israeli you are an American, you only send them money and weapons to do the job for you.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=2510

Ariadna said:

This video should be part of it so that future generations can shudder in horror and ask themselves how was it possible for the American people to support it financially, militarily and diplomatically.

Ariadna,

Although Mr. Anderson was photographing a violent demonstration and had sympathies for the ISM (which advocates violent confrontation with Israel), he did not die and was treated at an Israeli hospital. Furthermore, it is not clear that the cannister was shot purposefully at Mr. Anderson, or if it was an accident.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/14/world/middleeast/14westbank.html?_r=5

Lastly, IMHO, “future generations” will probably be more affected by videos of 9-11, the London, Madrid and Marine barracks bombings, the missiles and Scuds falling into Israel, and the various bus and restaurant bombings experienced after the Oslo handshake.

I’m probably wrong and that ship just needs a paint job…

There is a US-Israel-India axis in the works being countered by a Beijing-Moscow-Tehran axis and countries in the area are being forced to choose…Not an easy thing for Syria. However Moscow and Tehran are right there and will still be powers in the next 500 years. The United States is far away and roiled by a grave crisis.

AP said:
“I think the most acccurate “way to tell who is peaceful” is to see how parents bring up their children.”

You’re right, ziopet. Is this your daughter?
http://card.wordpress.com/2006/07/24/israeli-children-signing-bombs-part-ii/

I made it easy for you– picture not many words– but if you feel up to handling text try this:
1. Jonathan Cook called the “Zionist training” as the reason behind the Israelis’ indifference to what’s being done to the Palestinians in their name. He explains the massive lack of conscience throughout society by the cult-like indoctrination which every Israeli undergoes. This includes education in Zionist schools teaching Jewish exclusiveness, and near universal military training. Concepts imbibed there are frequently reiterated in cultural and media messages. So thoroughly are Israeli perceptions shaped by Zionist indoctrination that when they process information about war crimes by their army, it is stripped of its “significance”. Cook does not elaborate on the elements of this Zionist training, perhaps because its fundamental racist nature has so much in common with many other bigotries.
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2003/657/op32.htm
Or this
2. Israeli school textbooks as well as children’s storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and Arabs as “murderers,” “rioters,” “suspicious,” and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks.

Professor Daniel Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University studied 124 elementary, middle- and high school textbooks on grammar and Hebrew literature, history, geography and citizenship. Bar-Tal concluded that Israeli textbooks present the view that Jews are involved in a justified, even humanitarian, war against an Arab enemy that refuses to accept and acknowledge the existence and rights of Jews in Israel.

“The early textbooks tended to describe acts of Arabs as hostile, deviant, cruel, immoral, unfair, with the intention to hurt Jews and to annihilate the State of Israel. Within this frame of reference, Arabs were delegitimized by the use of such labels as ‘robbers,’ ‘bloodthirsty,’ and ‘killers,'” said Professor Bar-Tal, adding that there has been little positive revision in the curriculum over the years.

Bar-Tal pointed out that Israeli textbooks continue to present Jews as industrious, brave and determined to cope with the difficulties of “improving the country in ways they believe the Arabs are incapable of.” Hebrew-language geography books from the 1950s through 1970s focused on the glory of Israel’s ancient past and how the land was “neglected and destroyed” by the Arabs until the Jews returned from their forced exile and revived it “with the help of the Zionist movement.”

“The message was that the Palestinians were primitive and neglected the country and did not cultivate the land.”

This message, continued Bar-Tal, was further emphasized in textbooks by the use of blatant negative stereotyping which featured Arabs as: “unenlightened, inferior, fatalistic, unproductive and apathetic.” Further, according to the textbooks, the Arabs were “tribal, vengeful, exotic, poor, sick, dirty, noisy, colored” and “they burn, murder, destroy, and are easily inflamed.”

Atamneh explained that textbooks used by the nearly one million Arab Israelis (one-fifth of Israel’s population) are in Arabic but are written by and issued from the Israeli Ministry of Education, where Palestinians have no influence or input.

“Fewer than 1 percent of the jobs in the Education Ministry, not counting teachers, are held by Palestinians,” Atamneh said. “For the past 15 years, not one new Palestinian academic has been placed in a high position in the ministry. There are no Palestinians involved in preparing the Arabic-language curriculum [and] obviously, there is no such thing as affirmative action in Israel.”

Still, despite the massive zionist indoctrination meant to turn Israeli children into ziorobots, Dr Pappe thinks there is hope:

“there is a young generation in Israel – and I have ample opportunities to meet with young audiences – who may prove to have a potential to look differently at the reality in the future. The fact that you have generations of young people who are basically willing to listen to universal principles, provides the opportunity to break the mirror and show them what really happened in 1948, and what is going on in 2002. I think we shall eventually find partners, even to our wildest dreams, on how a solution should look like. The problem is of course, that while we do this – educate, disseminate information etc. – the government of Israel is preparing a very swift and bloody operation. If it succeeds, even our best dreams and energies would be wasted.

http://endtheoccupation.org/article.php?id=13

I don’t know you, ziopet. Are you too old and is your brain too well washed to benefit much from re-education and dezionification?

AP: “ISM (which advocates violent confrontation with Israel)”

Yes, ziopet, you’re right: the moon is made of green cheese.
If you somehow dubiously still hope to get some credibility choose your lies with a bit of care: they shouldn’t be the MOST flatulent in your 4-chamber stomach, ziopet. It makes you sound retarded which I am sure you are not so you are not being fair to yourself. You’re just a hard-working hasbara shoveller.

THIS is zionism. THIS is Israel:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Israeli-Army-T-Shirts-Mock-Killing-Palestinian-Women-And-Children-During-Gaza-Offensive/Article/200903315245946?f=rss

Majid who told you that i’m an arab nationalist ?
Shai,Without Israel ,this kind of rule would not have existed ,they imposed on us all these liberty killers special laws by using the excuse of the struggle against zionism.You will get an idea of this relationship, if you read the content of indictments used by the syrian regime against those who dared to criticize it precisely,for example the indictments against Michel Kilo and It’s always the same chorus.

Nur ,did you read about the military,scientific,economic cooperations between China and Israel?

Upcoming film with Massoud to surprise moviegoers
Islamophobia, the West’s ever-increasing fear after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, is now serving as a theme for an upcoming Turkish film. “Kelebek” (Butterfly) will make its debut simultaneously in Turkey and the Middle East (and probably in Europe) on May 1, with a story focusing on Islamophobia.
The most famous actor in the film is Syrian Ghassan Massoud, known to Turkish audiences through his appearances in “Kingdom of Heaven” and “Kurtlar Vadisi: Irak” (Valley of Wolves: Iraq). This time filmgoers will be seeing him as a contemporary Mevlevi dervish. Known for the meticulous selection of the roles he plays, Massoud says that “Kelebek” highlights the positive aspects of Islam and may help prevent the spread of Islamophobia.

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=170335

Ghassan Massoud’s Appearance in Kurtlar Vadisi;

It’s Qadiri Sufi Hadra

Ariadna,

If you can find other ways of expressing your (justified) hatred of Israel, without using such terms as “parasite”, “cancerous”, “ziopet”, etc., I might consider responding. Your hateful language contributes nothing to the Palestinian suffering and, only the opposite, it further unites Israelis against your cause. While it may be easy for you to let your tongue go from the comfort of your American home, people here on the ground (Palestinians) are still suffering.

I am also for the end of the Apartheid regime(s) in Israel. I am also for freedom and rights for the Palestinian people in the West Bank and Gaza, and for their refugees throughout the world. But your language only incites further hatred and suspicion. I can’t see how that serves the Palestinians in any way. I can see how it will hurt them.

Nour,

We can pretend the other side doesn’t exist, but that won’t make him go away. We can put quotes around “Israel” or “Palestinians” or “Refugees” or “Nour”, but that doesn’t make them something else. Israel has also, for too long, pretended that there is no problem. It’s time to address, not reject one another.

Shai,
What do you think of Murakami speech?
I think that he did the right decision of going there and say what he said, it came out much powerful than if he didn’t attend.

Arianda,
From a personal experience: Mr. Shai is a peace dedicated and honest man that I don’t think we are being fair to him when we let our anger goes toward him directly. He is here to help and to understand better and also to let us know that even in Palestine,’Israel’, there are good people who know and understand the Palestinians pain, suffer and struggle and they are not ok with that, I honestly appreciate his effort to do so.
just check his blog and you will understand what I mean.

Shai objects to my using terms like: ““parasite”, “cancerous”, “ziopet”
Ok, I will no longer address any zionist as ziopet, although it is a rather mild form of address–one could even consider it almost affectionate keeping in mind that we are talking to war criminals.
“Parasite” is a biologic term with a specific meaning: an organism that lives off another without any benefit to the host, at times at its severe detriment. I challenge you to dispute that Israel is America’s parasite.
Cancerous is also an appropriate metaphorical term for a state that has grown in the body of the ME, wasting it so it can disseminate (Eretz Israel = metastasis). Care to dispute it?

Shai said: “Your hateful language contributes nothing to the Palestinian suffering”

You’d better believe it. The only thing that both CAUSES AND CONTRIBUTES to Palestinian suffering is zionism.

Shai goes on claiming that my language “further unites Israelis against your cause.”

Wow! The power I had and didn’t know it. Do you realize how ridiculous your statements are?

Shai insists that my comment “only incites further hatred and suspicion.”
Whose hatred? is it possible for the Israelis to hate the Palestinians more than they demonstrate they do by killing their children? And if it is the trigger will be my calling them what they are?
Shai says he ” can’t see how that serves the Palestinians in any way.”

I can. making zionism known as far and wide as possible for the unmitigated catastrophe it is can only help the Palestinians and if you can’t see that it is your problem, not mine.

Jad, I mean no disrespect to anyone expressing an honest opinion–provided that opinion is not some zionist sloganeering. If I did so with Shai it was either unintended or I by mistake. On the other hand I see not justification in Shai’s telling me what language I should or should not use in expressing myself, least of all on the rationale that it might upset some zion ists, some of which allegedly are…. nice. Those who think dialog is still possible with the zionists must have been in a coma for the past 60 years.

Arianda,
Thank you for your respond,
I’m not in any way saying or asking you or anybody else not to use whatever words they want, I’m the last person to talk about this issue…I have a history of using words way worst than ‘Ziopet’ which doesn’t sound that bad, it’s actually justify from my point of view and I might use it later..again I’m the last one on this site to judge…(smile)
but in the case of Shai, I wouldn’t go too hard on him, I do understand his situation being between two tough and stubborn ideologies and not being able to satisfy any one of them, with us the Syrians he is the ‘Zionist’ with all it’s negative meaning we’ve got back in our minds and for the Israelis some might see him as the ‘weak’ where radicals might call him a ‘Traitor’ which is very unfair for him.
This is why I’m trying to explain his position to you. He is a great man to exchange thoughts and ideas with and you actually get somewhere unlike propaganda puppets you might get across.
Have a great day both of you, I’m out for today.
Love&Peace

Ariadna,

Look, if you don’t believe in “dialogue with Zionists”, then of course we have nothing to discuss. And if your words are indeed intended only at non-Zionists, then I certainly have no right suggesting you use this language or another.

My comments to you came with an assumption that you do want to convey certain messages (even very harsh ones) also to Israelis and to Zionists. And if so, that using legitimate or illegitimate terms such as “parasite” and “cancerous” cause an automatic shut-down in any Israeli/Jew’s ability to listen. In fact, I suggested it also creates an automatic antagonism, which breaks down any possibility for communication.

My concern was not the “legitimacy” of the language you chose (note: I referred to your hatred of Israel as “justified”), but rather the effectiveness. Of course I believe the true face of Israel and of the Occupation should be brought forth, to the International Community, to America, and by the way also (perhaps especially) to Israelis. The question isn’t WHAT to say, it is HOW to say it.

Although I claim this is true if you have even partial intention to communicate with “my side”, I would guess this is also true in reference to the general audience out there. I can’t imagine many Americans, for instance, accepting such harsh terminology coming out of Ahmedinejad’s mouth, regardless of the legitimacy of his words.

You can argue that this is the only way people will listen. But I disagree with that, because what you want is not just the listening part, but the doing-something-about-it.

This is my point.

JAD,

Thanks for the support… 🙂

JAD,

Haruki Murakami’s speech was indeed very powerful. But the problem is that “The System” is also a river that sweeps most into it. Few are able to withstand it. And that, unfortunately, leaves most of the power in the hands of so few. It is not easy to change the average person’s tendency to be led like sheep in whatever direction the shepherd (leader) chooses.

Shami
The argument that fighting zionism is the excuse rulers have used to impose dictatorial regimes in the region evaporates if one simply looked at the countries that have signed agreement with Israel. They remain dictatorial, single party with heridetary rule. Nothing changed except perhaps for more US interference in their affairs, and more corruption as aid money gets diverted to their pockets.

If it wasn’t zionism, it would be some other thing, may be law and order, economic progress, releigion or space aliens. These are inventive guys.

Adriana,
You have some very good points, such as the excellent post you had about education. However, violent language illicits one of two responses, more violent language, or shutting poeple out. If that is the aim, then be it. Responses to your good arguments will deteriorate into shouting matches, and further into snippets of insults with no substance. I believe this is what Shai is trying to avoid and I agree with him.

NOUR AL-CUBICLE

Good observation. But its is not only the US prong of that axis that is at risk. India will suffer signficantly with their focus on service economy as the means to create new middle class. That ecxperiment succeeded only when individual US were able to borrow enough money so that they can use such services. With new credits almost non-existent, much if India’s economic revolution will go bust. It is unfortunate for the hard working highly educated young poeple who thought they had a dream being realized. Only soon, they will find out that what happens on wall street affects them much more than it affects their Chinese counterparts, who opted for a factory floor and/or construction site jobs instead of desk jobs with headphone.

The software industry may survive a bit longer, but even this is not assured becauce most of the sofware that we being coded by the outstanding programmers in india is basically customized commercial and financial management software. I doubt that the number of clients will be as large as it was before the current economic disaster.

India is coming on to big trouble. And I dare say, it should be a lesson to all countries who try to tie their economies to service industries serving the US consumer culture. That culture will either disappear of will be dormant for at least 10 years. Enough time to reak havoc on India’s brightest. Really unfortunate.

Finally, there are historical relationship between diamond cutting in india and Israel, only in india it is basically performed by child laborers.

India Diamond Industry

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15842528/

OTW ,
If you meant Egypt ,Morroco and Jordan,despite their authoritarianism ,there is some tolerated level of opposition activism ,opposition representative in the parliements,with their offices,institutions ,newspapers,hospitals,schools,…there is a civil society,this condition is very necessary in hope of a peaceful and democratic transition.
In Syria ,if the regime persist in its stubbornnes,its adventure would likely finish in a blood bath ,change is unescapable.
And what you said is not accurate,check the transperancy index ,which give us the level of corruption,Jordan is doing relatively well ,Syria is in the bottom of the table.
The exception is Tunisia.
http://www.india-server.com/news/transparency-international-2008-3958.html
You can also see the poor HDI of Syria.
http://hdr.undp.org/docs/statistics/indices/index_tables.pdf
And as you can also see here ,Syria had also the world record of Scientists in Prison.
http://www.nap.edu/readingroom.php?book=syria&page=preface.html

If it wasn’t zionism, it would be some other thing, may be law and order, economic progress, releigion or space aliens. These are inventive guys.

I agree ,and i can not imagine what the syrian regime would find as excuse in order to keep the political status quo ,after he does peace.

Responding to Jihadunce (the new standard in highlighting Zionist Aggression™)

And if so, that using legitimate or illegitimate terms such as “parasite” and “cancerous” cause an automatic shut-down in any Israeli/Jew’s ability to listen.

Shai,

Perhaps. But if Ariadna needs to use these terms, I hope she won’t be too offended if I throw them back.

Ariadna,

You’re concerned about a young Israeli girl sending a message to Nasrallah, a Lebanese terrorist who doesn’t recognize her as a human being? Does this little girl dispute Lebanon as a sovereign state? I doubt it.

Meanwhile, your concern rings a bit hollow…

http://middleeastfacts.com/Gallery/thumbnails.php?album=4

Post 48, 1.) Jonathan Cook is an anti-Israel “reporter”. His job is to roam the Israeli countryside to find something disturbing and anti-Israel. If it shows the many good things that Israel does, it isn’t considered “newsworthy”. Of course this meets the needs of his anti-Israel audience like you.

Post 48, 2.) Feel free to post a link describing the audacious Israeli school textbooks and the terrible things contained in them.

http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Area=palestinian&ID=SR2203

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD224309

Yes, ziopet, you’re right: the moon is made of green cheese.

Ariadna,

What does that have to do with Freeing Palestine™? If you can’t win a debate, my suggestion is you strap yourself with Semtex and allow yourself to show us the true way to Paradise.

Anyway, now that we have personal nicknames, I hope you won’t mind if I call you “jihadunce”.

THIS is zionism. THIS is Israel:

Jihadunce,

Thanks for the T-shirt link. To the best of my knowledge, these shirts are NOT Israel government-issued clothing.

But then, who cares, especially since you support a government of terrorhoids that are openly intent on killing any Jewish civilian they come across. Talk about calling the kettle “black”…

Cancerous is also an appropriate metaphorical term for a state that has grown in the body of the ME, wasting it so it can disseminate (Eretz Israel = metastasis). Care to dispute it?

Jihadunce,

You can use whatever term you want. I know you don’t want to hear it, but the ME is not a body, it is a geographical area, despite what you learned in your Madrassa. Furthermore, Jews originated in the ME and have every right to live there. I know that’s a hard pill to swallow for an anti-semite such as yourself, but that’s the facts!

The only thing that both CAUSES AND CONTRIBUTES to Palestinian suffering is zionism.

Jihadunce,

The Arab governments and their jihadist patrons have more to do with Palestinian suffering than you could ever imagine. I suppose statistics showing more Palestinians being killed by Arab than Jews wouldn’t interest you.

is it possible for the Israelis to hate the Palestinians more than they demonstrate they do by killing their children?

Jihadunce,

Yes:

http://www.peacenow.org.il/site/en/homepage.asp

http://www.seedsofpeace.org/programs/middleeast

http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

http://peace.mennolink.org/articles/israelpeacegroups.html

Match that in some other backward Arab country…

Jihadunce said:

making zionism known as far and wide as possible…

Do your best, we have confidence in you!

India’s Tata Motors to launch ultra-cheap Nano car(2050 USD)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/22/AR2009032200378.html?nav=rss_business/industries

Subjects Jihadunces don’t like to discuss:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7959918.stm

Adriana, I want to lend my voice to Off the Wall’s note copied here:

“You have some very good points, such as the excellent post you had about education. However, violent language illicits one of two responses, more violent language, or shutting poeple out. If that is the aim, then be it. Responses to your good arguments will deteriorate into shouting matches, and further into snippets of insults with no substance. I believe this is what Shai is trying to avoid and I agree with him.”

Shai and Yossi have our gratitude for their patience and humanity.

Joshua

Professor Josh,

Please don’t be shy! I would like to nominate you to the same “humanitarian” club as Shai and Yossi.

You know why? Because any friend of the upright and just Syrian regime deserves to be called a humanitarian. It’s just that simple.

And once again, thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to bestow your loving praise to these 2 magnanimous participants.

I’m kind of lost. Who’s Yossi by the way? AP you seem to know him. Do you care to respond? Thanks in advance.

Shai,
Someone sounds very jealous of you and Yossi….that is hilarious….

AP,
You have won the case and the day. Care to take one of the Professor’s classes and test his cordiality first hand? I don’t understand how some people think: jealous of whoever because the professor took time to voice one-sided praise to some unknown. But that’s what he has been taught by his government and he also now has an iphone. So that makes him think he’s civilized.
Whatever he/she (Aria DNA) happens to be actually hurt the Palestinian cause unlike what she or the Professor think. As a matter of fact I felt more sympathy to the Palestinians through the pictures that you’ve shown than through her one-sided confused presentation.

You’ve also shown admirable patience, even though you born the brunt of the attack, and was civil throughout even though you may or may not happen to have an iphone!!!

Keep up the good work.

Shami

there is some tolerated level of opposition activism ,opposition representative in the parliements,with their offices,institutions ,newspapers,hospitals,schools,…there is a civil society

Agree, but how effective are these oppositions in creating a true alternative to obviously unpopular policies. How effective has this opposition in curbing corruption. These are nothing more than a bandage with the aim of relieving some external pressures and providing internal anesthetic. These oppositions in all of the countries you have alluded to are no more than the emperor’s cloths. I doubt that the hold on power Mubarak’s own corrupt party has in Egypt is less than Syria’s arrangement. The results are what count, and the ability of the opposition, if not to completely change direction, to at least curb excesses, and to guarantee true accountability, is what counts. Mubarak’s party will always have the absolute majority and will form the government. The rest is “Dehek 3ala alli7a”

I am not an apologist for anyone, but I also like to see results. I happen to agree that Jordan is making reasonable progress on that front. But all is within very narrow tolerable limits. The king remains supreme, unquestionable, and with absolute power. And with that, any toleration is a favor his majesty grants his subjects. By definition, this is an affront to democracy.

All said an done, let us wait and see what the great Jamal Mubarak will do when he “democratically” inherits the presidency. It is all a sham.

“Human” understands how people think, “barking species” don’t; they only know how to bark, bite, wag their tails, and lick their dirty behind, this is why they have diarrhea of the mouth with a major constipation of ideas, it’s very natural in the animal kingdom they belong to, I suggest they sit down and give their mind a rest.

Prof. Landis, ladies, gentlemen, and zionists,
I have given due consideration to all of your messages, for which I thank my well-meaning critics and I am happy to inform you that I have decided to make diligent efforts to modify my writing style, i.e., to henceforth abstain from using (excessive) sarcasm and to avoid metaphors that seem to make some of you, polite posters, cringe.
I hasten to reassure AP that I do not request reciprocity in this; on the contrary, I would sincerely encourage AP to feel free to call me “jihadunce” and “anti-semitic” because it is useful for my argument. It proves that in the zionist mindset:
1. Israel = All Jews
2. Jews are eternal victims whose actions are always righteous self-defense.
3. To criticize Israel, to despise zionism you must be (a) a self-hating Jew; (b) an anti-semitic goy; or (c) that zionist poster of evil: the “jihadists”–the incomprehensible aliens, subhumans (“cockroaches” in zionist taxonomy) who just want to kill Jews, all Jews and who hate their own children.
Golda Meyr infamously said that she hated Palestinians “because they make me kill their children.”
I happen to believe that not only in consideration of the three points above, but historically provable, zionism is the epitome of anti-semitism.
What can be more anti-semitic than for a Jew, obsessed with getting a foothold in Palestine and willing to make a devil’s pact with the Nazis for it to say “A dead cow in Palestine is better than a live Jew in Europe”” That’s how the Jews of Hungary were sold to the Nazis by Palestine-obsessed jews and how they were uploaded on the death trains.

What can be more anti-semitic than to exploit the concentration camp survivors for gain? Yet the billions of dollars paid by Germany and later extorted from Switzerland did not find their own in the pockets of the surviving victims, but in the coffers of the militarist state. They went into the bank of Leumi which was later quietly privatized… I believe Finkelstein’s mother got $700 in her time while the likes of Egelburger who negotiated the blackmail of Switzerland got a huge fee for his lawyerly advice…
Let alone the aside that Israel–not an entity in existence during WWII–had no legal right to collect compensation in the name of the Jewish survivors, some of whom never, not even later became Israeli citizens. Germany tried to argue that it would be happy to pay the survivors directly but Israel would have none of it and Germany was not in a position to argue. Why not pay them personally? First because Israel wanted to swallow the money, obviously, and second becxause when you pay them personally you count them too… As Finkelstein’s mother said “If there are so many survivors, who died at Auschwitz?”
Isn’t that profoundly anti-semitic? To swindle the labor camp survivors?

An enduring puzzlement of mine is the mystery of why a group of people considered by the rest of the world–let alone by themselves–smarter than most turn out to be the most gullible herd to brainwash.
True, the zioprop is clever and custom taylored: if you are a religious Jew you are told from infancy that you are special, superior, chosen because “g-d” said so. Why? Well, “g-d” only knows, and His ways are mysterious but, hey, is it good for the Jews or is it good?
Heady stuff and hard to give up. Any schmuck selling shoes in a little store in Paducah can feel superior to any dumb Goy with a PhD, let alone the schwartzes. And Israel is the symbol of that specialness, isn’t it. Jews “coming home after 2,000 years! Will the same happen to the Etruscans?…
If you are a non-believer, zioprop has one for you too: the judeocentric shmeer, whereby you belong to a select group of smarter people, who have higher morals, love education and whom the Goyim always envied and often oppressed and some of the nasty stuff that happened to your people in history (which is always the biggest tragedy, unparalleled and unique) proves that you must always be afraid of them and get the upper hand over them.
This worked especially well in medieval Europe and up to the 19th century when those in power–the rabbis–controlled the shtetls. The besieged mentality kept the flock in place and convinced them that death was preferable to –ugh!–assimilation. The punishment for transgressing was horrible. Think of they did to Spinoza: stretched over the threshold of the synagogue and stepped on by all the Jews and thereafter shunned like a leper. Modern times brought about confusion and danger–danger of losing power over the flock.
But Israel–ah, Israel is the ultimate shtetl–it keeps the worldwide Jewish flock in check–no shtetl ever worked so well: eternally threatened by “enemies,” needing the support of all Jews. Working well on the guilt of Gentiles as well (“Go ahead. Make my day. I’ll call you an anti-semite if you dare”). Of course the rabbis are now the ceremonial layer on top of the real power: the big sharks who manipulate billions of dollars on the world financial markets. In the meantime the Jew in Paducah is grateful that some Jewish fund sends his little 13-year-old Rivka to Israel for free so she can get in touch with her roots…
Yes, to be a zionist is not only to be racist, a war criminal directly or by aiding and abetting, a thief–grand larceny, stealing a whole country not petty cash, but also it is to be profoundly anti-semitic.
An Israeli zionist saying or even implying that Israel = Jews is saying that ALL jews worldwide share his culpability for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Is it possible to have a fruitful dialog with a zionist. Not in the sense that, as in a dialog with an average human being endowed with both intelligence and a conscience–it might be possible to agree on even a couple of basic principles. It is not. Look at AP spouting the usual zioprop about Palestinians hating their children. Does anyone think AP can all of sudden, convinced by reason, slap his forehead like father’s head, seeing the light?
The only use of having a dialog with a zionist is to expose the zionist mentality so that the lies that permeated the world’s consciousness for almost 60 years dissipate.
Israel cannot be reformed any more than the 3rd Reich could have been reformed or South Africa. Israel must be dismantled. Zionism must go the way of nazi-ism.
Being the “anti-semite” that I am I wouldn’t mind all the unreconstructed zionists to come here–this is a big country it will take a long time before they start making settlements in texas that threaten the locals– and let Palestine heal itself on a new basis, truly democratic.
It would be better for all Jews as well.
Gilad Atzmon harshly (but not unfunnily) said somewhere in his Guide to the Perplexed: “What is it about Jews that when spread in a thin layer, like fertilizer, in diaspora, they sprout minds and talents like Spinoza, Einstein, etc, but when piled up in one “fertilizer” dump together, as they are in Israel they give the world…. Uri Gellert?” (not exact quote)
Israel must be dismantled, not only because the Palestinian people have a right to justice but also because that fertilizer dump is bad for the jews and as an American, I can say it is very bad for Americans too… Also with Israel qua Israel gone there would be no reason to support regimes like Mubarak’s, would there

PS The fertlizer metaphor, I hasten to remind the readers, was not mine, but Atzmon’s

Ariadna,

I do not know what you do but you are full of knowledge and conviction ,

One question , Do you think that Jews have the right to return to Palestine and live as equal , as i would like my children to be able to return to Syria one day and live there as equal to the Syrians who never left.?

Dear Norman,
Don’t you know that your kids are considered Syrians even if they don’t have a Syrian passport? They only need to apply if they want. They can get the citizenship because of you; they might need to do the military service if it applies to them though.
I know that your question was to Arianda, but in my opinion, I don’t think that religion (any religion) gave anyone the right to take what doesn’t belong to him in the name of God, it’s considered stealing whatever angle you look at it from.
(and that, is my take) you’d better watch your signature my friend!

Responding to Majid:

AP,

You have won the case and the day.

I thought you might like that. It finally came out the way I wanted it to;)

Whatever he/she (Aria DNA) happens to be actually hurt the Palestinian cause unlike what she or the Professor think.

For sure.

As a matter of fact I felt more sympathy to the Palestinians through the pictures that you’ve shown than through her one-sided confused presentation.

My sympathy doesn’t matter. Being pro-Israel means I’m an enemy. If I were to accidently get caught in Gaza or Ramallah, I would be dead meat. Period.

You’ve also shown admirable patience, even though you born the brunt of the attack…

I call’em like I see’em.

Keep up the good work.

Shukran/Thank you

BTW – I just learned recently that “Yossi” is “Rumyal”, an Israeli, who, like Shai, feels it is necessary to put Israel under the microscope while everyone else gets to play jacks.

Hi Jad ,

I know that my children are considered Syrian , i want that to expand to their descendants ,

The Hebrews who are Jews are retuning to Palestine not because God gave them the promised land as i believe God promised the return to paradise if they believed in his son the Massih , I think they have the right to return because they were expelled by the Roman after the Roman destroyed the Temple .

And that is my take , (((By the way there is a trade mark on that .))

Norman asks me: “Do you think that Jews have the right to return to Palestine and live as equal , as i would like my children to be able to return to Syria one day and live there as equal to the Syrians who never left.?”
I have no idea what your personal situation is but it bears no comparison at all.
The only Jews who can be said to “return” to Palestine are those who were born there or whose parents, or, say grandparents, were born there and naturally the handful that had always lived there before the zionists pounced upon the idea of the Khazars “returning.”.
You cannot talk about people who have lived for untold centuries on other continents, whose only connection to Palestine is their mythology and –in the case of those who are religious–their Judaism, acquired who knows when, as “returning” to Palestine. If religion were enough then, say, the Pakistanis could want to “return” to Mecca provided a suitable myth were to be concocted…
No Russian jews, for example can ever convince anyone that they hail from Palestine through lineage that is thousands of years old. Be serious: the oldest royal houses in Europe who have had their lineage steadily chronicled barely manage to go back a few centuries. Can anyone maintain with a straight face that Ivan Solomonovici Gershn in Sevastopol can trace his ancestry back to… Palestine?
The right of return is a term that ahs been bastardized by zionists to mean–in Orwellian fashion–its exact opposite: that the Palestinians born there and expulsed have NO right of return and that people with no connection whatsoever with the land, from any continent on the globe can… “return” if they can prove they had at least one grandmother of the Judaic faith. So faith is proof of lineage?!?

Norman: “The Hebrews who are Jews are retuning to Palestine not because God gave them the promised land as i believe God promised the return to paradise if they believed in his son the Massih , I think they have the right to return because they were expelled by the Roman after the Roman destroyed the Temple .”

First of all I don’t even know what “Hebrews who are Jews” can possibly mean. Can you tell me? Who are these “Hebrews who are Jews” and are “returning”?
Second, according to you, people who claim to be the descendants of some tribes who lived in Palestine 3,000 years ago have a valid claim to the land of Palestine because the Romans destroyed the Temple of their alleged ancestors?!?!
Wow! that’s breathtaking! Imagine the geographic reshaping that needs to be made: Turkey used to be Grecia Minor, therefore out with the Turks, the Greeks need to “return.” Well, not the Greeks necessarily but whoever feels that they are descendants of the Athenians. They needn’t speak the language, after all ancient Greek is a dead language but as soon as they colonize Turkey in zionist fashion they can revive classical greek to give the “self-determining” Athenians a common language and a sense of being a nation.
My favorites, the Etruscans, they’ve GOT to haver some descendants somewhere, if only it would occur to them to reclaim northern Italy.
Iran has some reckoning to do with Macedonia, I am sure: just think how much Alexander the Great destroyed there.
I won’t even start touching the Americas….
Yeah… I see the possibilities.

One of the zionists here–I don’t remember which–said something about being sure that if he ventured into Ramallah he was sure he would be dead meat.
Important point.

“The Israeli people saw the carnage on their TV screens, they heard the voices, they saw hospitals and refugee camps in flames and yet, they weren’t really moved by it all. They didn’t do much to stop their “democratically elected” ruthless leaders. Instead, some of them grabbed a seat and settled on the hills overlooking the Gaza Strip to watch their army turning Gaza into modern Hebraic coliseum of blood. Even now when the campaign seems to be over and the scale of the carnage in Gaza has been revealed, the Israelis fail to show any signs of remorse. As if this is not enough, all throughout the war, Jews around the world rallied in support of their “Jews-only state”. Such a popular support of outright war crimes is unheard of. Terrorist states do kill, yet they are slightly shy about it all. Stalin’s USSR did it in some remote Gulags, Nazi Germany executed its victims in deep forests and behind barbed wire. In the Jewish state, the Israelis slaughter defenceless women, children and the old in broad daylight, using unconventional weapons targeting schools, hospitals and refugee camps.

This level of group barbarism cries for an explanation. The task ahead can be easily defined as the quest for a realisation of Israeli collective brutality. How is it that a society has managed to lose its grip of any sense of compassion and mercy?

The Terror Within

More than anything else, the Israelis and their supportive Jewish communities are terrorised by the brutality they find in themselves. The more ruthless the Israelis are, the more frightened they become. The logic is simple. The more suffering one inflicts on the other, the more anxious one becomes of the possible potential deadly capacity around. In broad terms, the Israeli projects on the Palestinian, Arab, Muslim and Iranian the aggression which he finds in himself.
Considering the fact that Israeli brutality is now proved to be with no limit and with no comparison, their anxiety is as at least as great.
…
But the Israeli is not alone. The Diaspora Jew who rallies in support of a state that pours white phosphorous on civilians is caught in the exact same devastating trap. Being an enthusiastic backer of an overwhelming crime, he is horrified by the thought that the cruelty he happens to find in himself may manifest itself in others. The Diaspora Jew who supports Israel is devastated by the imaginary possibility that a brutal intent, similar to his own, may one day turn against him. This very concern is what the fear of anti-Semitism is all about.
It is basically the projection of the collective Zio-centric tribal ruthlessness onto others.

http://palestinethinktank.com/2009/03/18/gilad-atzmon-–-war-on-terror-within-the-end-of-jewish-history/

“My understanding of a war is two opposing nations fighting each other to the death. I have never seen a war where it was not armies that were involved in such conflicts….. at least not until I moved to Israel.
Israel has created an enemy of a nation which it claims does not even exist. It has, for the past 61 years, occupied the land belonging to that nation. It has denied them every basic human right guaranteed them by the United Nations. It has ignored every condemnation against them by the World Body as well as a handful of other nations.
It has waged war against this nation….. a nation without an army. Who then are the targeted ones? The civilians….. innocent children and mothers. They justify these actions by claiming that every one of the victims is a potential terrorist. They have gotten away with these actions with the support of much of the western world. The Israelis have a network of support that no other nation enjoys. This network seems to have the world convinced that any criticism or condemnation of Israel is nothing but anti Semitism.
Now the question arises….. when a powerful nation wages a war against another nation that does not have a military aparatus, is it a war? From my understanding, the answer is no. In a case such as the conflict between Israel and Palestine, what could we call these actions? We have a number of choices that could be the possible answer…. genocide, ethnic cleansing, mass murder. All basically meaning the same thing.
The complicity of the West, even worse the support of the West, complicates the situation. The world literally stood by silently in the most recent attempt of the Israelis to destroy the civilian population of Palestine living in Gaza. Now we see the Israeli soldiers involved in this action admitting that it was a game for them. We are talking about the elimination of a people, the brutal mass murder and torture of a people…. is this a game? Despite recent reports that have been coming out in the mass media, the governments of the world have been silent. Israel has them all convinced that they were ‘merely defending themselves’…… AGAINST WHAT????? Stones being thrown at tanks or armoured vehicles that should not be where they were? Quassam ‘rockets’ fired by militants that do virtually little or no damage?
It’s time for the world to wake up and see the reality. Israel wants to see a Palestinian State without inhabitants. They speak of a ‘One’ or Two’ State Solution, but their aim is a ‘Final Solution’….. This we saw elsewhere in history, with the same tactics and the same evil ideologies.
It’s time for the West to say ‘THAT’S IT… YOU HAVE GONE TO FAR THIS TIME’.”

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/03/23/the-game-called-war/

You make some interesting points in comments 81 and 82. First I’ll answer one of your questions: who are the Hebrews? And by the way I’m not Hebrew.

Hebrew in Arabic (one of the few surviving Semitic languages) is ‘ibriyyoon. The first letter in the word does not exist in English being specific to the guttural languages and Arabic is rich in such guttural letters – thus the apostrophe at the beginning. The word is derived from the verb ‘abara meaning the one who crossed. Everyone who is an Arab, even if he is illiterate, understands in this case that the one who crossed is Abraham and in this case he crossed the river from Mesopotamia to Canaan where he settled and after a long childless life he was miraculously given two sons: Ishmael and Isaac. And from there the story goes. Isaac is the father of the Jews and Ishmael is the father of the Arabs or more precisely those who became Arabs or Arabized. As the Arabs are also two branches: The Arabs who perished (al-Arabu al-Ba’ida), those who preceded Noah (and Noah as you may well know precedes Abrahams by ages) and the Arabized Arabs (al-Arabu al-‘Ariba) or the Arabs of Ishmael. This is as far as I will go in answering your question about the Hebrews. I know the history of the Khazars but I’m not interested in exploring it further.

Now I’ll jump straight to the present. It seems that we have two people on this land who seem to be out of sync with history. Before 1948 the Palestinians were living on the land. Then the Jews took over either by Will of God, design, trick, theft or whatever you may want to call it and settled on the land. It has been sixty years since then and that is approximately three generations. No doubt, the majority of the Israelis of today are born on that land post 1948. There are also Palestinians who were born in exile post that date as well. Let’s forget for the time being about the pre 1948 subjects because either they perished or are a minority on their way to perish. Who has more claim to that land at the moment if we enforce a mechanism that will not allow further influx of immigrants from Russia, Poland, USA etc.? Were you saying the same thing in your comment 81?

Ariadna,

What do you mean by the “dismantling of Israel”? What will be dismantled, and how?

It’s great to have an educated and smart man as Dr. Hassoun to be Syria’s Mufti.
http://www.drhassoun.com/

On the other hand we have the Saudis one enjoy:

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??????- ?? ?? ??: ??? ???? ??? ???????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ???????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??????. ????? ????? ‘??????’ ??? ??????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ‘??????? ???? ????????? ?? ???????? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??????’. ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????????? ???????? ??? ‘???? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??????’. ???? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???????? ??????? ???? ‘??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?????’ ????? ?????? ?? ‘??????? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ?????? ???????? ?? ??? ????????? ???????? ??????? ????????? ?? ??? ?????’? ????? ???’ ?? ??????? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ??????????’.???? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ‘???? ?? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??????? ???????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??????’. ???? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ??? ‘??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? (…) ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????’.

http://www.champress.net/?page=show_det&select_page=8&id=36561

* ???? ??????? ??????? ???????? ??? ???????

???? ????? ????? – ??????? 23 ????/ ???? 2009

???? – ????? ?????

??? ????? ???? ???????? ??? ??????? ??????? ??????? ?????? ????????? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ?? 71 ?????.

????? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? 19 ????/ ???? 2009 ??? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ????. ???? ?? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????.

????? ???????? ??? ??????? ?? ??? 1938? ??????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ????????. ????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?? ????? (??????? ????????? ?????) ??? ???? ??? ????????? ?? ?????????? ?? ???? ??????? ?? ???????? ??????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????????? ?? ???? ?????? ????????.

?????? ??????? ????????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????????? ???????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ????????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??????. ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ??????.

??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ???????. ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????????? ?????? ?????? ???????. ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ????.

Majdi: “First I’ll answer one of your questions: who are the Hebrews? And by the way I’m not Hebrew.”

I did not ask who the “Hebrews” are. Another poster used the quaint term “Hebrews who are Jews”, which I questioned. I never asked you if you are “Hebrew,” nor do I care. Thanks for the biblical exposition, superfluous as well, because I do not regard the Bible as history. The whole who “begat” whom litany is of literary interest but does not constitute a valid ethnography, except in yeshivas. Hebrew could be considered a “surviving semitic language” pre-1948 in the same way the dialect of the Hopi Indians could have been considered to be “surviving”– a language used liturgically and spoken only by a handful of Palestinian Jews. It will probably revert to that after Israel bites the dust because it is even more limited than Latin (another “surviving language spoken only in the Vatican) for modern usage, and literate Israelis have long complained about its rigidity and lack of expressiveness.

That aside.

Majdi: “It has been sixty years since then and that is approximately three generations. No doubt, the majority of the Israelis of today are born on that land post 1948.”

Not exactly. Lieberman, and the other seemingly deranged UberZionist, Sharansky, are examples of “Israelis” whom Khazaria “begat.” Many–indeed so many–Jews born in Israel after 1948 have long since relocated to germany and the US and parts unknown and the exodus continues. They have been replaced by more Russians but I very much doubt–unless you have convincing statistics to show–that the majority of Israeli Jews were born there.

Majdi: ” Who has more claim to that land at the moment if we enforce a mechanism that will not allow further influx of immigrants from Russia, Poland, USA etc.?”

I will repeat what I said before and seems to have escaped you–if Israel is finally dismantled as a state–it would not be a question of who has “more right” –a zionist either or– the Jews living there at the time as “israeli” citizens and the Palestinians there then and those rightfully repatriated. Everybody has an equal right who can live in and abide by the laws of state that is no longer “for Jews” only, but democratic, fair and humane. My bet is that a lot of zionists will not.

Even many young ones may already have their minds too poisoned to make it:

‘In a recent article in Haaretz, Yotam Feldman writes about a journey through Israel’s high schools, where students freely admit to their hatred of Arabs and lack of concern about the erosion of democracy:

“Sergei Liebliyanich, a senior, draws a connection between the preparation for military service in school and student support for the Right” Feldman writes, “‘ It gives us motivation against the Arabs. You want to enlist in the army so you can stick it to them…I like Lieberman’s thinking about the Arabs. Bibi [Benjamin Netanyahu, leader of the rightwing Likud Party] doesn’t want to go as far.”

Shai: What do you mean by the “dismantling of Israel”? What will be dismantled, and how?

The beauty–but only an imaginary one…– is that if the Israelis could evolve enough to see the biblical writing on the wall it could be completely bloodless–a stroke of the pen, so to speak. (But that’s material for dreams only because zionism is as strong and deeply inculcated in the Israelis minds as fascism was in the minds of the Germans.)
The STATE needs to be dismantled. It wasn’t so complicated in South Africa, was it?
Why does it have to be through war and devastation?
The US could do it if it had any spine (and beitsam left)–we know how to impose ‘regime change.’ We have been doing it all over the world. Israel is totally dependent on the US–although one would think the opposite– so if it faced weaning or change it might elect change.
ONE STATE– a constitution that mandates equal rights, repatriation of refugees, free elections, denuclearization, ceding of stolen territories (the Golan, the Sheeba farms), peace treaties with its neighbours, the works!
The Israelis, by then Palestinian Jews, could become human again…

Ariadna,

It may surprise you to hear that I probably agree with much of what you say about Israel, but I certainly don’t believe a “dismantling of the state”, in the way you described it, could take place anytime in the near future. At the current state of my country’s psychosis (whatever its origins are), there is no way to force denuclearization of Israel. Israelis would rather have to depend on Micronesia, than give up their most powerful (perceived) deterrent capability. There is also no way to get most Israelis to accept repatriation of most or all refugees into Israel. I think this could change one day (not by force), but it will take first a creation of what I often call a “UME” (united middle east).

Recently, I’ve begun considering a somewhat-crazy idea regarding the Palestinian people, which may enable them to achieve their deserved freedom far quicker than otherwise. Read more about it here: http://1r1f.wordpress.com/2009/03/22/palestine-no-more/

I’m beginning to think that the best way to resolve the conflict is not to attempt to destroy (dismantle, etc.) existing structures, but rather take advantage and build upon them. If Hamas cannot find common language with Zionism, let Judaism come in and attempt to bridge the gaps. If successive Israeli governments are intent on settling more and more Jews in the West Bank, t’fadal, let’s annex the territory, create one-state, give all 4 million Palestinians the little blue ID cards we all carry, equal rights and obligations, equal representation, and begin creating a new reality and a brighter future.

But I honestly cannot see how Israel can be “dismantled” by force, given its strategic value to the U.S. (but not only), and its own strategic capabilities. The only thing that can change our system, is our people. It is them we should be targeting, not their leaders.

Btw, as a side note, Israel has always had the support of some “superpower”. Initially, when we didn’t have the U.S., we had France. When De Gaulle changed his mind, we got the U.S. If tomorrow, somehow, we’d lose the U.S., I’m sure “someone else” would be found. Behind the scenes, Israel and Russia are extremely close (despite Iran, etc.) There’s always an ally out there…

Ariadna,
Comment 89,
I did not refer to Hebrew as a surviving Semitic language and I don’t even know Hebrew or even if it still exists as a language. I refered to the Arabic language which is a surviving semitic language still spoken by over 500 million people. I explained who the Hebrews are from an Arabic etymology. I did not refer to the Bible. Do you doubt that Abraham existed? If you do then the Hebrews never existed – end of story. If you do believe that the man existed then the Hebrews are his descedants from Isaac until they became Jews when their Prophet (Moses) came. I’m not interested if you believe or don’t believe Abraham’s or Moses’ discourses with the Al-Mighty.
Even before the present day Jews migrated to Palestine, the Arabs who were and still are the dominant culture in the region always recognized the existence of such people which were and still are called ‘ibriyyoon in their literature (ARABIC literature not HEBREW). The Arabs were around prior to the Romans and definitely before the new world came to be known. An Arab will not care about Sharanski, Feldman or even Ariadna to come from the outmere in order to teach him his own history. My dear defender of the right, every stone in the Middle East has a story to tell unlike your brand new history-less new world. And that’s perhaps the source of the curse that seems to inflict that part of the world

You still seem to be confused and continue to confuse everybody. Who do you want to stay in Israel/Palestine and who do you want out? The onus is on you not on me to prove that the majority of the present inhabitants of that land were not actually born on site. Quoting couple sources is not enough to constitute a proof of your claim. You have to provide accurate statistics in order to present a coherent case and to stay away from emotional propaganda-style presentations in order to be taken seriously.

Ariadna,

The Israel Central Bureau of Statistics puts the figures, as of 31 Dec. 2007, as follows:

a. Total population in Israel: 7,243,600
b. Total Jewish population: 5,478,200
c. Total Jewish population born in Israel: 3,831,800 (approx. 70%).
d. Total Muslim population: 1,206,100
e. Total Christian population: 151,600
f. Total Druze population: 119,700

Just recently, the number of non-Jews under Israeli rule has surpassed the number of Jews. In essence, Israel is already not a “Jewish State” by its own definition. On the other hand, California has 60% population of Spanish-origin, yet is not called the “Spanish State”, and the locals are not afraid to be “thrown to the sea” by the majority. Somehow, I think that model could work for Israel as well…

SHAI,

Could you please explain your statement “Just recently, the number of non-Jews under Israeli rule has surpassed the number of Jews.”?

The numbers you provided indicate the opposite. How could things have changed so dramatically in one year?

Thanx

Majid,

Sure. The total population of Israeli citizens is 7.2 million. But under Israeli rule are also another 4 million Palestinians. That’s a total of 11.2 million. Out of which only 5.48 million are Jewish. Hence, a minority of just under 50%.

Majid,

Since I anticipate an AP/AIG-style “But Israel is out of Gaza” response, I’ll preempt by suggesting that it’s like saying Israel is out of the West Bank, because no Israeli troops reside inside major Palestinian towns and villages. By “Israeli rule”, I mean under Israel’s will. If Israel determines who enters and exists, what shipment arrives and what is turned back, how much electricity and food are provided, etc., then Israel controls the fate of those 4 million Palestinians. Hence, Israel controls the fate of 11.2 million people, the majority of which are now non-Jewish.

c. Total Jewish population born in Israel: 3,831,800 (approx. 70%)

Something doesn’t add with that equation.

In 2006 the amount of new Jewish babies in Israel was 104.000 and non Jews about 34.000.

If we would count that during the 60 years of Israel’s existence that every year would have born 100.000 new Jews in Israel the amount of Israeli Jews born in Israel would be 6 million. However the Israeli population was considerably smaller in the past decades. 1.2 million in 1949, 2.2 in 1960 and 3 million in 1970. So if we would estimate that the average births were 40.000 Jews yearly the result would be 2.4 million Jews born in Israel. I suppose that even that 40.000 average is overestimated.

In 1989 before the main tide of Soviet Jews Israel’s population was 4.5 million. 2.8 million less than 18 years later. If we would count the natural increasing of the Jewish population as 70.000 during that period the result would be 1.3 million. That leaves us a “gap” of 1.5 million.

The only way of getting the figure that 3.8 million of Israeli Jews living today are born in Israel is to “consider” that the immigrants children born elsewhere were “born again” in Israel.

One source

One thing that bothers me a little is how the population in Israel is counted. Is it Israeli citizens living in the country on December 31 or the amount of Israeli citizens on that date? I remember seeing in Haaretz an estimation that over 500.000 Israelis live abroad. If the population is calculated by the number of citizens, which I believe is used, the total amount of Jews living permanently in Israel is at the best 5 million. Probably less.

I can refer you to the Central Bureau of Statistics site, and you can do the research there if you like:

a. Jews born in Israel: http://www1.cbs.gov.il/shnaton59/st02_25.pdf
b. Population, by Religion: http://www1.cbs.gov.il/shnaton59/st02_02.pdf

I doubt “born in Israel” also means “born elsewhere”.

The STATE needs to be dismantled.

Jihadunce,

So what are you waiting for?

Our token Israeli “humanitarian”, Shai tells Jihadunce,

It may surprise you to hear that I probably agree with much of what you say about Israel…

Go figure.

Another tidbit Reverend Shai left out: the number of Jews in Israel has surpassed the number of Jews in the US for the first time in history.

The bottom line which no one touched on:

No one has the right to define another people. If group of people claim to be Palestinian. They’re Palestinian. If a group of people claim to be Jewish or Israeli, than they’re either Jewish or Israeli.

Now, assuming the Jihadunces of the world continue to fail to “dismantle Israel”, they will have to wait until the population of arabs superceeds that of the Jews and a peaceful transition of power takes place in Israel/Palestine.

And, mind you, a 51/49% split means each people will have to be strongly represented in the government. A real binational state could be in the offing.

Of course, if the Jihadunces can’t wait, they risk upsetting a delicate applecart. That is why it is important to isolate them.

This is why American pressure on the terror-supporting regimes is so important.

can refer you to the Central Bureau of Statistics site, and you can do the research there if you like:

I doubt “born in Israel” also means “born elsewhere”.

Well, well this becomes more and more interesting. The pdf of point a) tells us that the amount of Israeli born on 31.12.2007 was 3,877.4 and on 31.12.95 2,790.2 thousand. That is an increase of 1.1 million. An increase of 39 percent in 12 years. Come-on. That would be “much” even in the most poorest underdeveloped countries.

The table tells
Origin:
Israel 1,998.4
Asia 683.6
Africa 857.4
Europe-America 1,938.8
Israel born – total 3,831.8

Difficult to understand what this origin means. Is for example that Africa 857.4 figure that those 0.85 million are born in Israel to Jews from Africa? Then what means that Israel 1,998.4?

And the key question is what means Israel born – total 3,831.8? The amount origin Israel 2 million would make sense if count the children born in Israel using the estimates of average yearly births in Israel.

During 1990-2001 to Israel immigrated 625.000 new Jews and 200.000 non Arabs. So if we subtract from the total amount of Jews 5.5 million those “born in Israel” 3.8 million we get 1.7 million. So in Israel are “left” little over one million Jews of those who immigrated outside that 10 year period. Hard to believe.

Not that I’m against investigative reporting… 🙂

But I imagine the huge difference between 1995 and 2007 is due to the (again huge) influx of Russian immigrants in the early 90’s who, most likely, gave birth to children within a number of years following their emigration.

As for 1 million Jews left today in Israel who were not born here, and did not emigrate to Israel between 1990-2001, it makes perfect sense. Most of them probably came over in the 30’s, 40’s, and 50’s, and are still alive.

On Syrian nukes.

I agree with Shai that if I were Syria I would feel an urge to get nukes. This seems like a good and necessary shortcut to achieving some sort of strategic balance with Israel and more regional power in general. HOWEVER, I think that the way Syria went after nukes was totally reckless. You can search the media for all the dirty laundry that we have in Israel internally due to running a clandestine operation: hundreds of people with cancer who never got recognition from the state for their damages and losses, an operation without oversight were nobody can report things like financial corruption or sexual abuse on premise, and pretty much any other ailment that you can think of that is the result of lack of transparency when dealing with such a dangerous subject matter. So this is of course reckless enough, on the Israeli side, but the Syrian reactor would have been 10 times more reckless since it most certainly would have used less safe technology AND unlike Dimona which doesn’t sit on an important river or aquiver, the Syrian reactor was straight on the Euphrates river, with the unsuspecting Iraqis downstream. What would you think were to happen if this reactor turned into another Chernobyl and killed millions of Iraqis and poisoned their floodplains for decades? Building a reactor with such a technology in such a location is the most reckless thing imaginable.

(On the other hand once it was operational, Israel the US would have been handcuffed, because had they bombed the site, they would have been responsible for poisoning the Iraqis. So it’s smart from this perspective, but still reckless.)

Rumyal,

Syria should seek nuclear technology as threat of force is the only language that Israel understand , I doubt that Syria was building a nuclear reactor in a place so easy to see , then you Israelis think that the Arabs are stupid , so i am not surprised that you think it was a nuclear reactor.

Norman,

I don’t think Yossi is suggesting that we “know” it was nuclear or not. But I claim that it doesn’t matter, and that if it was, it makes perfect sense that Syria is developing a nuclear program. If I were Syria, I would do the same.

Yossi’s claim that if indeed it was, and given its location, it seems like a reckless place to do it on. But I also agree with him about the “perfect location” status if and when it would have become operational, because the considerations for destroying it would have become infinitely more complex. I think the proof that “the Arabs are (not) stupid” is in the fact that this building had been there a number of years already, and no one said a word, or knew anything about it. And then, one bright day, it’s a nuclear reactor.

I’m no expert at nuclear reactors, but from what I understand, if a nation wants to build one it’s not so easy to conceal it. By the way, there was an Israeli professor who said he feared that the plant was not for the slow-process enrichment of Uranium, but rather for the processing of ready-made Plutonium.

I’m not suggesting it was a nuclear reactor. But if Israel has an active nuclear program, I certainly think all other nations in the region have legitimate claims to their own.

Yossi, I can’t imagine anyone on our immediate borders (i.e. within easy reach) developing a nuclear program overtly.

Norman, (Shai),

Yes, my implicit assumption was that this was indeed a nuclear facility of some sorts in development. I don’t think it was easy to see, as it wasn’t discovered for a long while. It took an Iranian high-level defector to reveal the facility’s existence. Maybe I’m a sucker of the MSM but anything else at this point looks like a conspiracy theory to me.

Of course if I’m wrong about the actual nature of the facility, then I’ll retract my criticism about the recklessness of putting it where it allegedly was.

Shai, Rumyal,

If i were Syria and to build a nuclear reactor and I am a part of nuclear non profilation treaty , I would build one above ground for every one to see and inspect and one underground to do i want to do to compete with Israel,
One other question ,
Why didn’t they give all the information about the building immediately after it was destroyed and waited another year for that?.

Do you have any reason for that.?

Norman,

That sounds like a good idea, if you have the money for two reactors…

I don’t know why they kept it a secret. Perhaps there was nothing to be gained from publicizing it, this is definitely true of Israel that (a) has its own nuclear program it doesn’t wish to draw attention to and (b) had carried negotiations with Syria at the same time.

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