I am not sure the role of Syria will ever be equal to KSA role.

Double-Standard Alert

Looks like Turkey is still upset with Israel about Gaza. I suppose the Israeli government representatives could make an issue of out that, by bringing up Turkey’s brutality against the Armenians, etc, but I guess they won’t:

The Turkish Army conducted a policy of ethnic cleansing consisting of wholesale attacks and massacres of the Greek population of the territories that came under Turkish military population in an attempt to terrorise the Greek population into evacuating these areas.[2][3] The wholesale massacres carried by the Turkish army and Turkish Cypriot paramilitary groups against the Greeks of Cyprus spawned a limited number of similar attacks against Turkish civilians in the south by small groups of Greek Cypriot paramilitaries. In the small village of Tochni, all men between the ages of 13 and 74 were found shot.[4]. Likewise other mass graves were exhumed in the villages of Aloa, Sandalaris and Maratha containing women and children.[4].

The total number of Greek Cypriot casualties of the 1974 invasion was near 5000, of whom 1619 were reported as missing and the rest as killed. 160,000-200,000 Greek Cypriots became refugees. At the same time, 50,000-60,000 defying a policy of the Cypriot government prohibiting their movement into the Turkish controlled areas also left their homes and headed north. [5][6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_and_displacements_during_the_Cyprus_conflict

Armed Conflicts Report

Turkey (2003 — First deaths for this phase of the conflict)
Update: January 2009

http://www.ploughshares.ca/libraries/ACRText/ACR-Turkey2.htm

AP

As I mentioned before, it is maybe part of Obama’s new strategy to encourage countries that were friendly to Israel to send discreet signs of rebuff. The idea is to bring Israel to be more cooperative and renounce to the cowboy scheme they have followed for years. If it snowballs, then expect more small or big “snubbings” from other countries who are getting tired of the continuous Israeli criminal aggressions and its unwillingness to respect international laws. So get ready to find in Google that they also performed crimes in the past

If it snowballs, then expect more small or big “snubbings” from other countries who are getting tired of the continuous Israeli criminal aggressions and its unwillingness to respect international laws.

WD,

I think it is already snowballing. “Snubbings” against Israel are nothing new and so I don’t dwell on that. I just find it interesting how countries seem to be able to defend themselves how they see fit by killing orders of magnitude more civilians than Israel. And under less of a threat. Israel is ready and able to defend herself on the battle field as well as an international court.

And now that Obama has won the Nobel Appeasement Peace Prize, we are simply witnessing a strengthening of radical regimes like Russia, Iran, and North Korea. Turkey and Syria know which way the wind is blowing. This is the “snow-ball”. In the end, the US will eventually wake up amd smell the kawa.

Dear Alex,
As usual, GREAT ANALYSES.
Thank you

A.P.
your commemt,again,is deceiving,and not relevant,the turkish fight against armenian, is commited by different generation,and different goverment, it is an old history, you are trying to justify crimes by current Israel,by mentioning crimes by another nation, why dont you mention crimes by american against red indians, or crimes by Joshua,David and Soloman against palastinian in the old history what is the responsibilities of palastinians for what happen to the arminians?.
You are again deceiving, and your comment will not convince anyone that the crimes of Israel against the palastinias, now,are justified, they are crimes by the evil zionist entity.

The so called Israeli Turkish “strategic” ties, is nothing but a relationshit,
that had to be exposed long time ago; better sooner than later.
It was never between the peoples, but between the aging and diminishing
Turkish Ata Turkian elite, and the Turkish military.
Israel should quit the bad habit of associating with tyrants, Juntas
and dictators.
The Turkish people is taking the power. It is done peacefully and with
no bloodshed.
For Turkey, Bonding with Syria is the natural thing to do, and we must
respect the will of the Turks.
.

Mehlis required to present himself to the High Justice Court in Paris following a suit against him by Jamil Seeyed who was jailed for 4 years after Mehlis indicted him and Syria on the basis of a false witness account of Hariri’s murder plot.
Note that Mehlis has reeived the French l’Ordre National de Merite for his work against terrorism .

Mehlis convoqué par le TGI de Paris

Par Élie MASBOUNGI | 13/10/2009

Suite à la plainte pour diffamation déposée en France par Jamil Sayyed, le magistrat Detlev Mehlis (qui avait instruit dans sa première phase, pour le compte de la commission d’enquête internationale, le dossier de l’assassinat de Rafic Hariri) a été convoqué par le Tribunal de grande instance de Paris.
Mme Fabienne Pous, chargée de l’instruction de ce procès, a invité fin septembre, par commission rogatoire, le magistrat allemand à se présenter pour s’expliquer dans un délai maximum de deux mois.

Interrogé par L’Orient-Le Jour sur cette affaire, l’avocat du général Sayyed, Me Antoine Korkmaz, a déclaré que c’est là la procédure normale et que la convocation a été transmise « par les voies naturelles » à M. Mehlis qui réside en Allemagne.
« Si M. Mehlis n’a rien à se reprocher », a dit notamment Me Korkmaz, il répondra à cette convocation du TGI de Paris, sinon Mme Pous le mettra en examen sans l’avoir entendu.
Par ailleurs, l’avocat a indiqué qu’une plainte dans le même sens sera bientôt déposée auprès du Tribunal international pour le Liban, à La Haye, instance qui n’était pas opérationnelle lorsque le général Sayyed était venu en France pour déposer sa plainte qui visait également l’ancien ambassadeur du Liban en France, M. Johnny Abdo.
Interrogé hier par des journalistes libanais établis en France, M. Abdo a affirmé qu’il n’avait pris connaissance d’aucune citation à comparaître devant un tribunal quelconque alors que son lieu de résidence est bel et bien connu en France.
Rappelons que le motif de la plainte du général Sayyed contre MM. Mehlis et Abdo était la diffamation et la subornation de témoin.

Thank you Jad, you are always very kind.

What do you think of this new anti-smoking Presidential decree?

http://www.sana.sy/ara/2/2009/10/12/249130.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8302794.stm

I am very happy it includes a ban on argeeleh too.

Alex,
That is a great news, I just wish it wasn’t a decree, I honestly HATE seeing the presidency getting involved in every little details of the public life, it supposed to be the government/parliament job to do so, otherwise there is no need for them if we need to ask the presidency to do all the job for them, nevertheless it is still a good decision.

Please check some of the comment at Syria News, I have no idea how such subject become suddenly a religious-secular fight!!!! SAD

http://www.syria-news.com/readnews.php?sy_seq=102798

(بن الياسمين الدمشقي
إلى الدكتور خليل ( الطالباني العقليّة )
العقلية الطالبانية التي أسقطها البعض على د.خليل تؤكدعلى كره عميق لكل حضارة جاء بهاالإسلام يكنها العلمانيين لنا .. أنا معك د.خليل وأنقل باسمي وباسم كل الدمشقيين والحلبيين وأهالي سورياالأطهار رجاءنا من السيد الرئيس بمنع تقديم المشروبات الروحية (علناًعلى الأقل) وعدم بيعها لأحد .. لامانع أن يتعذب السياح بالبحث عن المشروب في بلادنا كما نتعذب بالحث عن اللحم الحلال في بلادهم .. لماذا كل أمر يتعلق بالتدين منبوذ سلفاً وكل أمر من عند الغرب مرغوب به سلفاً ؟ أنتم أصحاب العقليةالطالبانية والله ياعلمانيين)

Lies & Deceit: Turkish Chutzpa

majedkhaldoun states:

your commemt,again,is deceiving,and not relevant,

Deceiving is lying. Nothing I have written is a lie. If you think so, please point it out. Everything I have written is factual.

Of course, we all know that the only thing that is “relevant” is what Israel does. This is old news here.

the turkish fight against armenian, is commited by different generation,and different goverment, it is an old history,

What “fight” are you referring to? Did the Armenians really pose a threat to Turkey? How so? The “Armenian Holocaust” was committed less than 100 years ago. Is that “old history”? Is Israel’s creation 61 years ago also “old history”?

you are trying to justify crimes by current Israel,by mentioning crimes by another nation,

No. Every country’s battles and wars have to be studied in context. Did the Armenians, Greek Cypriots and the Kurdish “terrorists” launch Qassams, Katyushas, mortars and Grad missiles into Turkish population centers by the thousands? I don’t think so.

why dont you mention crimes by american against red indians, or crimes by Joshua,David and Soloman against palastinian in the old history

Sure. Good idea. 100 to 200 years ago, the US governments committed terrible attrocities against the American Indians. Today, the US is fighting half-way around the world in Iraq and in Afghanistan killing orders of magntitude more civilians than Israel. Where is Mr. Goldstone? Where is the UN? Frankly, it’s a double-standard. The same one we’ve all come to know and love.

what is the responsibilities of palastinians for what happen to the arminians?.

The Palestinians are responsible for themselves and their elected government (Hamas and the PA). Not the Armenians.

You are again deceiving, and your comment will not convince anyone that the crimes of Israel against the palastinias, now,are justified, they are crimes by the evil zionist entity.

Again, please point out the deception, and I’ll be happy to comment on it. Of course, I do not plan to “convince anyone” here about the “evil zionist entity”. It would be silly to for me to try compete with a culture that teaches is children to hate Israel from infancy.

http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archive/2008/11/hatred-of-israel-is-like-mothers-milk/

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/PalestinianChildAbuse/

Armenians

While there is no consensus as to how many Armenians lost their lives during the Armenian Genocide, there is general agreement among western scholars that over 500,000 Armenians died between 1914 and 1918. Estimates vary between 300,000 (per the modern Turkish state) to 1,500,000 (per modern Armenia,[109] Argentina,[110] and other states).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

Cyprus

The Turkish Army conducted a policy of ethnic cleansing consisting of wholesale attacks and massacres of the Greek population of the territories that came under Turkish military population in an attempt to terrorise the Greek population into evacuating these areas.[2][3] The wholesale massacres carried by the Turkish army and Turkish Cypriot paramilitary groups against the Greeks of Cyprus spawned a limited number of similar attacks against Turkish civilians in the south by small groups of Greek Cypriot paramilitaries. In the small village of Tochni, all men between the ages of 13 and 74 were found shot.[4]. Likewise other mass graves were exhumed in the villages of Aloa, Sandalaris and Maratha containing women and children.[4].

The total number of Greek Cypriot casualties of the 1974 invasion was near 5000, of whom 1619 were reported as missing and the rest as killed. 160,000-200,000 Greek Cypriots became refugees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_and_displacements_during_the_Cyprus_conflict

Kurds

The extreme violence of the PKK’s methods enabled the government to portray the PKK as a terrorist organization and to justify its own policies, which included the destruction of about 850 border villages and the forced removal of their populations to western Turkey.

There were thought to be an additional 60,000 to 75,000 part-time guerrillas. The number of deaths since the war’s outbreak in 1984 had risen beyond 12,000 by 1994.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/kurdistan-turkey-insurrection.htm

A.P.
“It would be silly to for me to try compete with a culture that teaches is children to hate Israel from infancy.”
did you forget Israel massacre of Qana,children do not neede to be taught to hate Israel, Israel is making them hate Israel, remember Qana, remember Qana, and stop deceiving.remember Dair Yasin, and so many other crimes,israeli are breaking the bones of children, do you remember those pictures, remember that even now Israel putting Gaza children in a prison .do you want us to lie to the kids and tell them , Israel is good?.the best way for us to say that to the kids is for israel to stop killing kids, remeber Qana.

Majed,
As you already know, Qana was one in a very long list, it starts with King David Hotel in Jerusalem and it wont end with Gaza:
http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/israeli-massacres.htm

The Israelis still keep treating the Palestinians like ‘human’ of course
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/deutschland-uber-alles/

Even Israelis soldiers are talking about that
http://draykcab.wordpress.com

Jad,Thank you.
Let A.P.( Yatoss),See and comprehend and admit the truth

>>> What do you think of this new anti-smoking Presidential decree?

I think, prof. Josh will have to find anothe pictorial theme for his posts about Syrian society…

[…] Read more from the original source:  Syria Comment » Archives » Alex on Saudi Arabia; Hamidi on Turkey […]

Akbar,

Why is it that you can’t say to Majedkhaldoun, and to JAD after seeing those pictures, “You’re right. There is no justification for our harsh action.” That’s it. No if’s and’s, or but’s. Just “We’re wrong.”

But no, you want to provide an excuse, to legitimize Israel’s super-harsh treatment of the Palestinians (as is more than evident in those pictures JAD provided), by pointing back at classrooms in Gaza that teach their children to hate Israel, and to want to become Shahids. You want to point back at the Qassams that rain down on Israel’s South, and say “You see? That’s why Israel has to respond like it does!” You’re more than hinting that it’s in the Palestinians’ hands. That all they have to do, is make a choice. To you, that choice would be to accept us as is, and to stop hurting us. To them, what you ask may well be seen as nothing short of surrender.

But what I still cannot understand, not in you nor in any supporter of what Israel does to the Palestinian people, is your reluctance or almost dismissal of the concept of proportionality. If thousands of Qassams rain down on Israel’s South, for 9 years, day after day after day. Sometimes many times a day. And 30 people die. And most rockets land in empty fields, not atop houses. And very few missiles actually come close to any human being, or to structures. How can it be that it is ok for Israel to kill 1,300 Palestinians in merely 22 days? 30 deaths in 3,000 days. 1,300 deaths in 22 days. That’s disproportionate ratio of 5,909-to-1, in Israel’s “favor”. We extract a price that is 5,909 times as painful. How can that be accepted?

So you’ll tell me that the “psychological toll” those Qassams have on the children of Sderot is immense. Fine, it is. But is it close to the toll of death? And what about the ongoing toll Israel is extracting with its blockade of Gaza? Not a grain of rice can, a single needle or medicine, or an ounce of gasoline come into Gaza without Israeli approval. Does that not effect the lives of 1.5 million people? Sderot, as you may know, has a population of around 20,000. And although a “poor town” in Israeli standards, it is safe to assume that most of its inhabitants receive at least one warm meal a day. They also take warm showers, and have heat during winter. They eat well, and sometimes don’t sleep well. They’ve suffered psychologically, much more than physically. But can it be compared with Gaza?

So I don’t buy the Israel=Nazis comparison, but those images speak for themselves, and they are (and should be) very powerful. They say Israel is doing something horrifically wrong. And the numbers speak for themselves as well. 5,909-to-1. How can you justify such a thing? How can you think of it as a legitimate response to the Qassams?

But what I still cannot understand, not in you nor in any supporter of what Israel does to the Palestinian people, is your reluctance or almost dismissal of the concept of proportionality.

Shai,

I apologize to you for not being able to convince you and others on this forum that Israel’s response to 7 years of missile fire from Gaza was legal and not “disproportionate”. No country has to tolerate random missile fire into her villages. Of course, if you want to tolerate this you’re free to tell your elected leaders that you do. From what I heard, the communities of southern Israel were begging the government to do something militarily after living under these conditions for years.

If it ever reaches the International Criminal Court, I believe Israel will win her case.

Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives,[1] even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians (principle of distinction) (Article 8(2)(b)(i)) or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage (principle of proportionality) (Article 8(2)(b)(iv). Article 8(2)(b)(iv) criminalizes:
Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;
Article 8(2)(b)(iv) draws on the principles in Article 51(5)(b) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I to the 1949 Geneva Conventions, but restricts the criminal prohibition to cases that are “clearly” excessive. The application of Article 8(2)(b)(iv) requires, inter alia, an assessment of:
(a) the anticipated civilian damage or injury;
(b) the anticipated military advantage;
(c) and whether (a) was “clearly excessive” in relation to (b).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(law)

And of course, if countries like Turkey want to chime in to teach Israel about “intentional attack(s) directed against civilians”, I think that’s the height of hypocrisy.

Akbar

Until very recently, 2007, most Jewish groups in the US took the Turkish side and fiercely resisted any attempt by Americans from Armenian descent to extract a congressional resolution calling the genocide a genocide. Many of my active Armenian friends were dumbfounded at the blocks put in their way by groups such as the ADL. Only in 2007, when pressure from Jewish liberals combined with the rising fortunes of the Islamic party in turkey, some American Jewish pressure groups began considering a change of position. Only to retract the change later. For decades, and during the honey period between Turkey and Israel, successive Turkish governments found in pro Israel pressure groups and in Israeli ambassadors in the western world allies in preventing the US’s recognition and in attempting to halt the recognition of other European governments of the genocide against Armenians.

The success of Turkish-ADL-AIPAC alliance in preventing the genocide issue from taking roots in political discussion for a long time has contributed to what you call Turkish hypocrisy. So before you talk about Turkish hypocrisy, look in the mirror and ask yourself how come groups that you support have aided and abetted the Turkish hardliners in their genocide-denial for nearly a century.

Unlike the leadership of ADL or of Israel, I do not care whether Turkey is a friend or foe, and I do not need to receive talking points from anyone to call what happened to the Armenians a genocide. I have the stories transmitted from one generation after another of Syrian Armenians to tell of their misery and of generosity of the Syrian communities who received the Armenians with open arms and helped them settle and thrive in their new homes.

In today’s Turkey, there seems to be a nascent movement to come clean about the issue. Part of the Turkish Armenian normalization plan includes a joint effort to assess the events in scholarly manners. While Armenians in the diaspora are standing as one against this new normalization, the two states are forging ahead with it with blessing from the US as well as with my own humble blessing. Yet, at the end of the day, I do not care what the “scholars” may come up with at the end of their “scholarly” deliberation, it was a genocide and Turkey must and will eventually come clean about it. There is no way around that, at least not for me for I am not as relativistic as ADL or AIPAC.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=turkish-and-syrian-ministers-enter-new-chapter-of-cooperation-2009-10-13

Turkish, Syrian ministers establish new chapter of cooperation

Davutoğlu: Common destiny, history and future is slogan of Turkey and Syria

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-189784-davutoglu-common-destiny-history-and-future-is-slogan-of-turkey-and-syria.html

OTW

I agree fully. It is only when Turkey and Armenia have a normal and calm relationship that the issue of ‘genocide’ will be dealt with, through compensation, public excuses and reconciliation.
I salute the intelligence and the vision of the Turkish and the Armenian president who are opening an era of cold discussion on burning subjects and the vision of a new economical opportunities in the region. Erdogan should have received the peace Nobel price.

OTW,

I could never understand why Jews, anywhere, would help deny anyone else’s holocaust. You are absolutely right. I wonder if anyone would accept Ahmedinejad saying “I’m denying the Jewish holocaust ever happening, because of internal-political reasons… sorry.” AIPAC and ADL should be the FIRST in line to pressure the U.S. to demand Turkish recognition of the Armenian holocaust. I imagine this was never a condition, but the EU should have demanded the same of Turkey, as it did with stopping the execution of Occalan.

Akbar,

I didn’t debate the “legality” of an Israeli response to 7 (actually closer to 9) years of Qassams raining down on Israel’s South. I debated, and condemned, the disproportionate response by Israel. You cannot simply say “Israeli response was legal…” and stop there. What about HOW it responded? Would you consider a 5,909-to-1 more painful response legal? Does it matter at all HOW Israel responded?

Proportionality must be a key principle in war. Curtis Lemay once said to Robert McNamara (paraphrased) “Had we lost the war (with Japan), there is a good chance that you and I would have been tried as war criminals…” Robert McNamara years later asked “Well, what makes it right if we win, and wrong if we don’t?”

There is no doubt that had it been the other way around, had the Hamas killed 1,300 Israelis, after Israeli rockets killed 30 Palestinians in 9 years, someo on the Hamas leadership would have had their faces up on walls at the Hague.

Shai,
You wrote what I was thinking of in regard of AP comments, I think he over looked the fact that nobody on here is promoting that Israel should be hit by rockets and do nothing, we all are asking for a fair and just treatment for the Palestinians and Syrians under the occupation of Israelis, we are not asking for revange or to kill any Israeli regardless how unfair and unjust he/she is to our peopel, we are asking for FREEDOM, JUSTIC and HUMANE treatment for those millions of Arabs cramped in huge prisons denning them any right of being pride human being let it be in Gaza, West Bank and Jolan, all of those areas are occupied lands and that is our point and that what we will always ask for, and I have no idea why he thinks that bringing the Turkish massacres against Armenians will make us think differently about the Israeli occupation today, it’s weird and to be honest a very ugly way of thinking.

Shai is is still Puzzled

The success of Turkish-ADL-AIPAC alliance in preventing the genocide issue from taking roots in political discussion for a long time has contributed to what you call Turkish hypocrisy.

OTW,

I’m not sure what “alliance” you are referring to. The ADL has recognized Turkey’s role in the Armenian genocide. IMHO, it is pretty clear the Turks killed hundreds of thousands and perhaps over a million defenseless civilians. AIPAC, apparently has never spoken one way or another about it. (I believe they only concentrate on American-Israeli ties.)

Turkey presses Israel over ADL’s recognition of ‘Armenian genocide’

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/896887.html

Turkey angered by new ADL stance on Armenian ‘genocide’

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/896880.html

Some conversations seemed to go directly to the core of the Turkish concerns in Washington, such as the June 19 discussion with two Aipac officials on “Turkish concerns on Armenian issue; Lack of support on the Hill from Jewish organizations,” or the August 25 call to Jess Hordes, head of the ADL’s Washington office, on “ADL’s position re: Armenia & genocide.”

http://www.forward.com/articles/14518/#

“Translating that on the issue of Turkish – Armenian issue, AIPAC is not – and I can say this unequivocally – not lobbying on this issue at all… Unlike the ADL which has a very clear message on interracial inter-ethnic issues,” Kreizelman said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3443592,00.html

Conversely, Israel has held off on this issue to appease Turkey. I suppose appeasing Turkey now (Oct. 2009), isn’t as much of a concern.

Knesset to discuss Armenian genocide

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3524126,00.html

Shai asks:

I wonder if anyone would accept Ahmedinejad saying “I’m denying the Jewish holocaust ever happening, because of internal-political reasons… sorry.”

Yes Shai,

I think a LARGE percentage your Palestinian and even Arab friends “accept” what Ahmadinejad is saying. Perhaps you should be more careful about the questions you ask. You may get an answer that disturbs you.

BTW, Shai, what percentage of the world Jewish population to you think deny the Armenian genocide?

Controversial doctorate

They claim he downplayed the number of victims and accused Jews of collaborating with the Nazis.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1933453.stm

Many Palestinians share these views. There are a number of serious, pragmatic Palestinian leaders. But Palestinian radio and television have often recycled Holocaust skepticism. A recent poll of Arab citizens of Israel found that 40 percent deny that the Holocaust occurred. And Hamas (which Obama said in Cairo may “play a role in fulfilling Palestinian aspirations”) has referred to “the so-called Holocaust, which is an alleged and invented story with no basis.” One Hamas leader in Gaza has claimed “the Zionists were behind the Nazis’ murder of many Jews” with the goal of forcing immigration to Palestine. “When we compare the Zionists to the Nazis,” he said, “we insult the Nazis.”

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/06/10/obama_and_holocaust_denial_96913.html

AP

Arabs were not involved in the Holocaust, they had nothing to do with the european anti-semitism and feel no guilt whatsoever toward Jews. For Arabs it is as remote as the massacre of the indians by the americans. They also know that the crimes were perpetuated by the same european countries who stole their lands to hastily settle the survivors of their crimes and vote the creation of the state of Israel. Arabs don’t have fathers and grandfathers who witnessed the holocaust, but they have fathers and grandfathers who were expelled by force from their lands and that is in their psyche forever.
In addition, the fact that Israel used the Holocaust as a mantra to justify their occupation of Arab lands is one more reason why many Arabs would readily doubt about its veracity and minimize it.

The problem with you AP, is that you refuse to put yourself in their shoes because it may remind you that they feel the same frustration, humiliation and powerless anger your fathers felt when they were treated like cattle by the Europeans.

Akbar
and i was born yesterday

Your ability to dig deep in the sand is astonishing. First, my own comment started with the declarative statement “until recently, 2007”. Bringing up Turkish disappointment does not mean that there were no concerted efforts for decades by ADL and other groups to block the conversation and to deny that what happened was a genocide. What angered Turkey was the changing position. Even then, Abe Foxman had to be dragged kicking and screaming before he reluctantly agreed with the view points of most Liberal Jewish Americans. The ADL statement itself was ridiculed by many Jewish intellectual as legalese hair-splitting.

In the statement, which is accessible through the last link in my comment, the operative word (the consequences of the actions were indeed tantamount to genocide). So basically, Abe has not even recognized that these were deliberate genocidal actions, but military actions with tragic consequences, could it get more dishonest than that.

Furthermore, dig deeper in the Forward itself and you will find the following article

Armenian Genocide Debate Exposes Rifts at ADL
By Jennifer Siegel
Published August 22, 2007, issue of August 24, 2007.

http://www.forward.com/articles/11470/

Here is an article from Boston showing how bad was the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of ADL on this issue, only few days before the AUG 22, 2007 statement.

ADL local leader fired on Armenian issue Genocide question sparked bitter debate Andrew H. Tarsy’s firing sparked a backlash.
By Keith O’Brien, Globe Staff | August 18, 2007

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2007/08/18/adl_local_leader_fired_on_armenian_issue/

MEMRI can not help you here Akbar, ADL and Foxman’s record on the issue is really, really bad. AIPAC was smarter during the heat of the debate, but saying that they were not lobbying on the issue at that specific moment does not vindicate them or their member organizations from the the complicity i mentioned earlier.

Finally, here is an blo article from Haaretz with the title

Under pressure, ADL head reverses stance on Armenian genocide

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerBlog.jhtml?itemNo=895975&contrassID=25&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=1&listSrc=Y&art=1

So now, Akbar, do you now know what alliance i was talking about., I guess not

why-discuss

this is for you.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/the-mufti-of-berlin-arabnazi-collaboration-is-a-taboo-topic-in-the-west.html

WD,

Very powerful response, and very true.

(Off topic)

Hey Ayrabs! check out Microsoft Maren…

http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/egypt/cmic/maren/

Akbar,

I think you should ask Alex if he can reverse the comments back to a point where you can choose to not-introduce Turkey’s stance against the Gaza Operation as double-standard… I think most here have demonstrated Israel’s own double-standards quite well.

And no, I’m not puzzled. I knew you couldn’t utter the words “Israel was criminally wrong by reacting in such disproportionate fashion.” To you, the neighborhood bully has every right to whoop any tiny kid who dares challenge the bully. By “whoop”, I mean blows that are 5,909 times more painful. And you know where I get this number from.

Yossi,
That’s a good news, there is something similar way before this ‘Maren’ I used but you need to write it there then copy and past.
http://www.yamli.com/arabic-keyboard/

JAD,

Or, you can just buy a Mac, and on the top bar, click “Arabic-QWERTY”… 🙂

Shai,
I’m an ‘Ayrab’ I only use PC and Microsoft because it is cheaper, MAC is for fancy ‘non terrorist’ people….
Thank you for thinking that ‘high’ of me 😉

Since we are talking about cool software check out this one, it’s so cool, I’ve been using it a lot in my presentation, you will LOVE it.
http://prezi.com/

Shai,

Windows support, I’m pretty sure, more keyboard layouts than Mac. That’s not the point, the point is that you can type it in English like *you say it* (phonetically) and it replaces it with the actual word. With Arabic (and also Hebrew with diacritics) that’s easier than finding the right keyboard combinations to create the right combinations of letters, shaddas, hamzas, madas and all the other diacritics.

Jad,

Cool. Yamli is basically the same thing, just not integrated into the Windows shell. (That’s how Microsoft works—take a good idea and turn it into an excellent idea 🙂 )

Perzi looks interesting. I was in a presentation by an Adobe dude two weeks ago and he said that the presentations we make today with Power Point or Acrobat will be considered unprofessional 10 years from now. He said in 10 years our presentations will look more like short interactive movies. Sounds pretty scary to me–I was never strong with visuals.

Yossi,
That exactly what Perzi is doing, Powerpoint is so YESTERDAY and you are NOT COOL and OLD FASHIONED if you still use it..

Jad,

You make me feel like a granddaddy. I guess that’s your revenge for calling you an Ayrab. I’ll give you that: you are one hip Ayrab!

Ammo Yossi,
Actually I liked Ayrab, its so hip and catchy! even a Towelhaed would work fine with me just don’t call us a terrorist like AP does 🙂
My advice, Just try Perzi, you will feel ‘young’ again and at your age that is important

IDIT

Brilliant and cleverly documented article! Now Islam inspired the Nazi ideology? The germans (and you) should feel relieved. You have finally a good reason to hate the Arabs and in particular the moslems. Now you can justify Gaza crimes and all the other murders as a justified eye for eye for the “evil inspiration” they gave to Hitler.
You can now sleep like a baby, can you?

Jad

There is a similar windows ‘western arabic keyboard layout’ that allows typing latin letter phonetically and generate arabic:

ie: to type marhaba, you type MROBA and it generates the right arabic script

http://zsigri.tripod.com/fontboard/arabic.html

Very useful and easy.

يوسي
شكرا

واي ديسكس
شكراً

أوف ذا وال
أنا و واي ديسكس مافي شكراً؟
الله يسامحك
بس شكراً لهل إختيار يوسي

(your only thanks are to Yossi the old man?) I’m hurt.

Alex,
Great take on the currently less lukewarm than usual KSA-SAR official relations. A point needs to be made about the peoples of the region, who are full heartedly pro-Palestinian on one hand, and definitely upset by corruption on the other hand, in their lands of course, but also at the highest instances of the so-called “civilized” world, from the UN to the clueless Norwegian Parliament. I apologize for my prolonged silence due to professional (me) and health (my dad) reasons. I will e-mail you soon and probably copy Josh. By the way, why does anybody care about the opinions of a bunch of Zionists? Jad and others are wasting their time with Akbar Falace (pun intended) and other trolls. I wonder if Professor Landis could erase fallacious comments. Too bad these trolls are not part of official groups in the USA, they could be reported to the Southern Poverty Law Center for inclusion on the list of hate groups.
Vive la Palestine.

Jad
These were the only words I could muster. So guess what, I was about to write a review of Prezi, which reminded me of my Iphone more than anything.

But guess what here you Go
الأعز جاد
شكرا جزيلا ليس فقط للمعلومات القيمه بل أيضا للمداخلات العالية الحيويه.

واي ديسكس
أريد أن أعبر عن اعجابي الشديد بالمداخلات الاخيره أيضا

اخوكم
فوق الحيط

أو بالمشرمحي
حيط

يا جهاد، “من الحائط” يحترمني عشان سنواتي الكثيرة. مش هيك؟

يا يوسي يا خرفان أنا إسمي جاد وليس جهاد
I guess the terrorist influence of AP had a strong affect on you lately LOL
Thank you for proving my point of you being SO OLD forgetting who are you talking to.

Dearest OTW
Your comments made me laugh so hard I woke up the whole neighbouhood…I hope you are happy now making me the crazy guy in the building…
شكراً جزيلاً

Interesting. Even the Finnish radio news mentioned today morning the following news, which is unusual fast “reaction”.

Syria says to hold military exercises with Turkey

By the way the Reuters’, as an international news corporation, “filing system” is interesting. This news is in the “folder” Latest Crisis.
…www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN13205852
Surely a crisis for Israel, but hardly for Turkey and Syria or for the rest of the world.

Turkey as a big power has asthonishing long let Israel play the first violin in their neighbourhood.

WHY-DISCUSS
Indeed that site posted by IDIT is a @#$ hole of racism. I never saw anything like that except in the writing of some deranged scholar wannabies, you know who I mean.

Yossi
هيك ونص و حبه بركه

why-discuss

My point was to show you that your claim that the Arabs had nothing to do with the Holocaust is without a base.

That was my only point. A point which you cleverly evaded.

Would it be conceivable that Syria comes to terms with the Israeli occupation of the Golan as it has come to terms with Turkey’s occupation of Hatay?

Kingcrane said:

Too bad these trolls are not part of official groups in the USA, they could be reported to the Southern Poverty Law Center for inclusion on the list of hate groups.

Kingcrane,

There is nothing illegal or racist showing instances of severe human rights violations by Turkey (that were never acted upon by the UN or the like) and the hypocrisy they show while castigating Israel. Turkey killed more civilians in Cyprus than Israel did in both the recent Gaza and Lebanon war combined.

The doubt SPLC would care about some pro-Israel blogger.

I knew you couldn’t utter the words “Israel was criminally wrong by reacting in such disproportionate fashion.”

Shai,

Good call. I’ll wait for the ICC to determine this. Judging from the definition I posted above, I don’t think it was. Certainly Turkey committed criminally “disproportionate” warfare against Cyprus, the Kurds, and of course the Armenians, but they’ve never faced any international court.

Akbar you obviously have not briefed yourself (like normal) what happened in Cyprus before the Turkish invasion. If you would have had you would not use Cyprus as an example. So much it resembles the situation in Israel/Palestine.

In Cyprus there is a Turkish minority and Greek majority. Much happened during the British colonial time and between constitutional breakdown in 1963 and the Turkish invasion. After 1963 the majority begun to treat the minority like you do in Israel. The Turk Cypriots were forced in scattered enclaves and the population which did have over 30 percent of the land “suddenly” had 4 percent left. That land was taken by Greek settlers and local Greeks. The ideology was called Enosis. Does it sound familiar? The majority terrorized the minority with very cruel ways.

Voice of Blood 2: Searching for Selden
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-7695688617775364591#

Because the local people could not find a peaceful solution the major power created a two state solution. Since then there has been peace, well relatively peaceful.

Should we Akbar hope that Turkey will come and help Israel to solve the problem with Palestinians in the 1974 style? By the way USA supported the Turkish “solution”. Ironically it also supported the Greek Junta, which caused much of the troubles. That is why USA is not very popular in Greece.

Turkey killed more civilians in Cyprus than Israel did in both the recent Gaza and Lebanon war combined.

That is pure Little Green Balls propaganda Akbar.

The amount of killed by Wikipedia were on the Turkish side 568 and on Greek side 397 + 992 missing (most likely killed). Hundreds of Cypriot Turks went also missing.

Antoun,

You ask:

“Would it be conceivable that Syria comes to terms with the Israeli occupation of the Golan as it has come to terms with Turkey’s occupation of Hatay?”

I think this is the right question. It is certainly Israel’s and America’s plan as things now stand.

Daniel Kurtzer, twice ambassador to Israel and close Obama adviser, was just visiting OU and gave a series of talks. I asked the same question. Kurtzer did not answer directly – but raised his eyebrows and smiled. This was after he suggested that Israel could wait 4 or 5 years before opening negotiations with Syria in order to take advantage of what her argued was a deteriorating economic and environmental situation in Syria due to the end of oil and decrease in water supplies combined with increased population. His argument was that Syria would be weaker in the future and would thus have to clime down from its demand for all the Golan.

But your argument is more to the point. Israel is not interested in negotiations with Syria because Syria is too weak and Jerusalem has no compelling interest to make extremely difficult political concessions.

If Syria’s economic situation deteriorates rather than improves in the future, as most Israelis and, obviously, as Kurtzer and others in the US diplomatic community project, Israel will have even less interest in the future to make concessions. In short, I think it is safe to say that the current Western position is to wait Syria out and pursue a “Hatay” policy.

Syria has no immediate answer to this Israeli-American strategy. Syria’s attempts to change the military balance of power have not been successful – i.e. Israel’s bombing of Syria’s “nuclear” facility, Western pressure on Russia, Iran, China, N. Korea, etc. not to supplied advanced weapons to Syria while tricking out Israel with most advanced weapons. West’s protection of Israel’s nuclear advantage, proscription of anti-Israeli resistance as terror, support for Lebanon and Gaza operations as response to pressure from Arabs, Israel’s success in getting Egypt and Saudi to turn against Arab resistance, pressure on Iran to abandon anti-Israel stand, etc.

The terrible drought now devastating swaths of Syria’s Eastern provinces only underscores Syria’s weakness.

Can president Assad reverse this equation so that Syria is getting stronger and Israel weaker? I will not pretend to know the answer to this question. Syrian’s are now rejoicing in Turkey’s new regional stand. They are hoping that economic liberalization will liberate the capitalistic talents of its people, which have long been bottled up by socialism and bad management. They look to Saudi Arabia’s recent step toward Syria as a sign that Arabians will not completely abandon the notion of pressuring Israel and helping Syria is its struggle with Israel. Syria hopes that as Iraq sorts itself out from the body blows it has suffered and takes a concerted “Arab” stand. The recent contretemps with Iraq over Sunni militants is not auspicious.

I cannot say that I am optimistic about the immediate prospects of the Arabs sorting out their many difficulties in time to retrieve the Golan. All the same, the objective of getting back the Golan is much more deeply embedded in Syria’s nationalist psyche than was Alexandretta. Much can go wrong for Israel in the next 30 years to reverse the balance of power should Israel decide to tough it out and keep its foot on Syria for the next several decades, as it seems to be doing. It took Syria’s 70 years to overcome the loss of the Alexandretta – it was a separate administrative unit under the French Mandate. The Golan has been occupied for only 4 decades.

There are risks to Israel’s strategy, but so far, it is hard to see big trouble for Israel on the horizon.

I or IDIT or I DIDIT or I DIDNOTDOIT …

Eluded?

If I have to believe all the zionist relentless, apparently well documented articles trying desperately to justify their crimes by hiding behind photos of the christian pope or a moslem mollah meeting Hitler or any german Nazi, I would ask for a refugee status in Israel (would they take me?), convert (can i?) and join the IDF to kill all the arabs to the last baby and ask for the blood of the evil christians. This is why I should refrain from reading these clever and convincing articles, that are usually corroborated only by other zionist medias.

Israel’s success in getting Egypt and Saudi to turn against Arab resistance

Professor Josh,

We can only hope your website can do whatever is possible to reverse this ugly trend.

Do you have any al-Queda post office boxes where we can send contributions?

I’m not surprised by your rude reaction, maybe a little disappointed.

God forbid we will shutter your orderly little world.

That is pure Little Green Balls propaganda Akbar.

Sim,

Apparently the ECHR didn’t agree with you. Nevertheless Sim, I have noted (once again) your leniency toward non-Israeli initiated violence. All very “loosey-goosey” for those who aren’t Zionist.

The Turkish Army conducted a policy of ethnic cleansing consisting of wholesale attacks and massacres of the Greek population of the territories that came under Turkish military population in an attempt to terrorise the Greek population into evacuating these areas.[2][3] The wholesale massacres carried by the Turkish army and Turkish Cypriot paramilitary groups against the Greeks of Cyprus spawned a limited number of similar attacks against Turkish civilians in the south by small groups of Greek Cypriot paramilitaries. In the small village of Tochni, all men between the ages of 13 and 74 were found shot.[4]. Likewise other mass graves were exhumed in the villages of Aloa, Sandalaris and Maratha containing women and children.[4].

The total number of Greek Cypriot casualties of the 1974 invasion was near 5000, of whom 1619 were reported as missing and the rest as killed. 160,000-200,000 Greek Cypriots became refugees. At the same time, 50,000-60,000 defying a policy of the Cypriot government prohibiting their movement into the Turkish controlled areas also left their homes and headed north.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_and_displacements_during_the_Cyprus_conflict

ECHR says that Turkey guilty of human rights violation in case of missing in Cyprus

http://news.pseka.net/index.php?module=article&id=7913

Two Chamber judgments concerning Turkey

http://www.lobbyforcyprus.org/echr/2008/240608-isaac-solomou.htm

DISAPPEARANCES DURING THE 1974 CONFLICT IN NORTHERN CYPRUS

http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/viewhbkm.asp?sessionId=30116453&skin=hudoc-en&action=html&table=F69A27FD8FB86142BF01C1166DEA398649&key=75630&highlight=

The constant attack by A.P. against Turkey. can be explained by fear and frustrations.fear that turkey is getting closer to Syria,this is churning his stomach,and may be causing him an ulcer, he is making noises, but it will not effect syrians attitude toward Turkey,his attempts are useless, he will fail

Majed,
It is not him personally, AP just got some order to do so and he has no choice but to write what he is writing, not out of his love to the Armenians or out of humanitarian issues it is all business for him, even his repeated attacks on Dr. Landis is also business.
The sad thing is the other IDIOT attempt to link the faith of Islam to the Nazi, how pathetic, as if the Nazi were listening to any mufti or if they were separating Semites according to their religion not their skin color….
The Nazi start with the Jews while Arabs were next on their list so even if the Mufti met with Hitler and even if he was asking him to gas all the 6millions Jews, that doesn’t change the fact that GERMANS and EUROPEANS are the ones who turn on the gas not ARABS and that where WD analyses is coming from: we as ARABS have no hands in what the WEST did to its Jewish population and therefore it is unfair for us to pay the price for that massacres from our future, our history, our land and our children’s lives, we had no power then and we still have no power now, so spare us from your ‘polite’ and ‘stupid’ propaganda IDIOT.

The constant attack by A.P. against Turkey. can be explained by fear and frustrations.

Majedkhaldoun,

I started this “controversial” thread as Post #2. I am not “attacking” Turkey. I am merely pointing out the hypocrisy of Turkey’s recent criticism of Israel’s defensive policies.

Turkey’s foreign policy has varied throughout the years, and it seems to me, and I think we can see that Turkey’s policy has shifted. If that is what Turkey wants to do, that’s fine with me.

Majed
I believe that the fear is beyond Syria and Turkey getting close. The geopolitical situation in the region seems to be heading towards Turkey playing even a bigger role, as SIMO said

Turkey as a big power has asthonishing long let Israel play the first violin in their neighbourhood.

Turkey’s actions challenge a western centric view of the region. A view which sees Israel’s hegemony as a guarantor of western interest (please note that i am saying hegemony not existence) and on Turkey being treated in one way or another as inferior to much smaller and weaker eastern European states that were invited to join EU with a great fanfare while hurdles were being placed in Turkey’s path every step along the way. Granted, there were issues that Turkey had to deal with such as the abolition of the death penalty and a redress of the Armenian Genocide question, but despite of all of her effort, more demands were being placed constantly, despite of Turkey’s central role in aiding the west’s win of the cold war.

I believe that the new leadership in Ankara has had enough and have arrived at a conclusion that Turkey is by far the biggest regional power at this point in time and that, as a country, it can no longer tolerate being subservient to western interests.

The emerging outlines of the new Turkish paradigm, which includes mutual understanding, fair international order and justice, and dialog, threatens this view and is beginning to chip at this current unsustainable geopolitical reality. If we look beyond the immediate region and start thinking Central Asia, the enormous potential of a larger regional pact begins to emerge.

Notwithstanding Turkey’s own power, a regional alliance, which includes, in addition to central Asian republics, Syria as a gateway to the Gulf and Iran as a gateway to Pakistan and India, makes new regional order not beyond rational contemplation.

What is disconcerting to many, particularly those who want Israel to maintain an illogical hegemony is the fact that the US seems to be mostly ambivalent, and even coldly supportive of this vision. It appears that the cost of the on-going two wars combined with the current economical situation, have finally convinced policy makers in Washington, at least in the current administration, that regional alliances and powers are bound to emerge, and that US interests can be guarded through engagement with these alliances as opposed to military power. In this view, Israel, in its current arrangement, risk becoming more of a liability than an asset. This is where the scary part comes in.

To borrow and extend SIMO’s image, Turkey is now claiming the first violin, in due time, it will probably become the conductor, with Israel, unless it manages to change direction, becoming an off-note trumpet. Syria on the other hand, must enact political, economic, and cultural reforms in order to exchange the monotonic, occasionally annoying, and primitive Rababa, with a rich, beautiful, and versatile Quanoon (pun intended).

JAD said:

we as ARABS have no hands in what the WEST did to its Jewish population and therefore it is unfair for us to pay the price

I agree, the “Arabs have no hands in what the west did to its Jewish population”. However, Arabs do have a “hand” in what it does to the State of Israel and international terrorism. Arab and Muslim states have a “hand” in Islamic fundamentalism and support of terrorism (aka “resistance” as described by Professor Josh).

Lastly, good luck to you and your heroes who make up the Islamic Republic of Iran and the quest you have to move Israel back to Germany and/or set the clock back to 1947. I wish you all the best.

O.T.W.
Thank you, I agree fully with what you said.

AP,
First, you are mixing too many issues together that makes no proper base for me to even try to reply.
Second, I refuse your baseless accusation that I supported in anyway or even by word to move any Jewish man/woman back to Germany, because it doesn’t make any sense whatsoever to what I always write and I already know that you wont find that anywhere out of your imagination, So please unless you prove to all that I Jad actually wrote something like that or even closer to what you are accusing me of an apology will be appreciated.
Thank you

oshua,

You said: “There are risks to Israel’s strategy, but so far, it is hard to see big trouble for Israel on the horizon.”

I disagree. While it is true that Syria did not react to the attack on its “nuclear” facility, I believe it is fair to say it could have. Instead of its aging Soviet tanks, Syria has been developing strong defensive-strategic capabilities which, if tested enough, could “suddenly” turn offensive-strategic. I’m not one to judge whether Syria does or does not pursue nuclear capabilities, but I always pose the following to myself, and to my friends and colleagues: “Give me one reason why Syria should NOT be pursuing such capabilities.” It is apparently known that many nations in our region, including Syria and Israel, have chemical and biological capabilities. So WMD programs aren’t foreign to either nation.

From hearing Sadat’s numerous interviews after October 73, the one message that clearly came across to me was: “Egypt had had enough. And we HAD to prove to Israel that it could not continue behaving like a neighborhood bully.” I believe Israel today is similarly pushing a number of Arab states into the corner of despair. And the more desperate Syria becomes, the more it will seek offensive-capabilities. And, who’s to say that it won’t achieve them one day soon?

If I was Israel’s leader, and suppose I genuinely believed Syria WAS close to nuclear capabilities, or on it way, the lesson I would learn is that it is only a matter of time before Syria succeeds. That this time, I stopped it, but that next time, I won’t. And, therefore, that the longer I wait with the Golan (hoping to get Syria “used to it”), the closer I bring myself to a horrific future confrontation. Like Norman always suggests, Syria may one day elect to suffer a terrible blow, but in so doing to force the International Community to force Israel to return the Golan. One certainly cannot argue against the notion that, without the October 1973 war, Israel would have never returned the Sinai. In that war, despite Egypt’s strong army, it suffered close to 4 times as many dead as did Israel. I’ve heard the number 10,000 dead soldiers in the past (I’m not sure it is true), but Israel lost 1/4 of that.

In almost every sense possible, I cannot see how time is running in Israel’s favor.

SHAI,

Your analysis is right on and it is only a matter of time.
Syria is progressing in many ways, in some with little steps and in some ways in bigger steps. The clock can not be stopped or turned back.
The right climate with the right preparations might just be there one day for the perfect storm.

The total number of Greek Cypriot casualties of the 1974 invasion was near 5000, of whom 1619 were reported as missing and the rest as killed.

Akbar the first of two sources which are said to mention this near 5000 in Wikipedia is locked by an ID and a password, the other’s link is broken. Could you use your Little Green Balls account userid and password and check casualties in the first source?

By the way Akbar casualties means dead and wounded.

I do not want to undermine the human suffering in Cyprus, but it is a bit hypocritical to make Turkey the villain of this Cyprus story. Stupid Greek and Greek Cypriot policy and behaviour lead to the evident catastrophe. The Armenian and Kurd “problem solving methods” are completely different stories. In those cases the majority treated badly the minority.

I find it extremely amusing when Israelis and their international chorus now hyperventilate that Turkey has no right to criticize Israel has done the “same” and achieved bigger numbers. What would Israelis and Jews say when Germans would use the same logical approach?

Most humorous this approach was when pro-Israeli chorus some weeks ago denied all critics towards Israel by Sweden and Norway because these countries allegedly have in the past treated badly the Sami people. Well the Sami people are Finno Ugric nomadic tribe and their number is around 100.000 and they have nowadays exemplary rights. If Bedouins in Israel would have equal rights Israel could be proud of itself. But they do not have.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people

IDIt

God forbid we will shutter your orderly little world.

A civilized reply, indeed.

AP

The root of the problem IS 1947. Of course we cannot go back there as Israel’s children are now in a home they have inherited from their parents who acquired it by force and it is natural they defend their rights to stay. An injustice was done and the spirit of justice must prevail now, if it did not in 1947. The question is to decide about what is just, what was done wrong and how to correct it while respecting the inherent right of human beings to have a country, safety and opportunities.
Ideally, there should a international tribunal to study the case, hear the plaignants and agree on a solution.
Instead, like primitives, the case has been treated with blood and violence. It has escalated to higher and higher levels of retaliations and hatred, each party finding its own justification for more violence.
A country claiming it is a democracy is lying if it accepts that conflicts are dealt with violence. Big powers, some of them responsible for the source of the conflict, others its perpetuation, should have the moral courage to organize a large conference of peace on this 60 years war.
Israel and Arabs should have the courage to accept an arbitration on the conflict. Until then there was no one with high morals and enough guts to start such a process. I hope Obama will carry the rest of the big powers with him in that direction. Maybe idealistic but many of the events that stopped wars like Northern Irland, were unrealistic.

Shai,

I agree with you too, as long as Israel can not defeat Syria and the Arab decisively which is not possible because of Israel’s lack of population support and manpower , sooner or later Syria will be able to fight back when it has the will to do so and it loses it’s faith in the US ability to apply international law , what pushes people to take the law in to their own hands is the lack of faith in the legal system and in getting their rights legally.

I think Shai is wrong. Syria doesn’t have a sponsor and the world climate is totally different now. In the 70’s all the societies in the middle east and actually around the globe were pretty much mobilized for war. Syrian society is not mobilized for war, it is not prepared to deal with the tax of war and the people are not prepared. In the 70’s, Egyptians knew that sooner or later, they will be in an all-out war with Israel. I don’t think this is the case with Syria. In addition to that, the capabilities that the Egyptians developed in the 70’s allowed them to capture a piece of territory and hold on to it. This made it plenty clear to the world what their intentions were. Syria is not developing such capabilities (as far as I know), and a biological missile attack on Tel Aviv will not mobilize public opinion to Syria’s side.

So I think Syria doesn’t have a military option and I think this is for the better. Nobody needs another war. There is no humanitarian crisis in the Golan that forces Syria to lose its patience. Syria will get the Golan eventually. No war is necessary.

Josh

Have the people and leadership of Syria come to terms with Turkey’s occupation of Hatay? I don’t mean politically or strategically but accepting the lose of Hatay as part of historical Syria?
Has realpolitik trumped national aspirations?

Yossi,

The Sinai also had no humanitarian crisis, and yet Egypt was ready to sacrifice 10,000 of its soldiers for it. Anwar Sadat, her leader, decided that without paying this price he may not get to see Egypt regain its territory back, not during his lifetime. He saw how Egypt tried to offer Israel peace, and failed. How Israel replied with arrogance, and more arrogance. He, not “the Egyptian people”, was ready for war. And he mobilized his army to regain Egypt’s pride.

Wars, as we know, don’t always start with something rational having happened. Very often they start because of misperceptions or misinterpretations. This is how the 1967 War began. The Soviets did a good job of deceiving everyone. They had an interest (at least they thought they did) in causing another Middle Eastern war. Who’s to say this won’t happen again? And how do you know that in the “3rd Lebanon War” (god-forbid), Israel won’t attack Syrian targets as well, punishing it for ongoing support of Hezbollah? And if Syria is attacked, how do you know that won’t lead to all-out war? Do the Syrian people have to first agree?

We must be careful not to “rationalize” the other side’s motivations for war, or for non-war, and deduce based on our own perception of what is rational or irrational. It may be an emotional decision at an instant, taken at the highest level, with very few rounds of “consultation”. The greatest damage the Arabs have caused Israel came after a surprise attack, when Israel wasn’t ready. In this day and age, it will not happen with tanks rolling forward, but with showers of SCUD missiles (I imagine). Israel will respond harshly, and we’ll be at war.

Does Syria have more to lose than gain? Perhaps. Certainly in manpower and material. But how do you gauge the value of those, compared with regaining national pride and, quite possibly, the Golan back?

In every strategic surprise in History the attacker had a reason to attack (when and how he did), and the attacked estimated wrongly the likelihood of such an event. Dayan also thought it was irrational of Egypt, with its defeated army (from 1967), to attack as early as 1973. He “reassured” his nation just weeks before, that such a possibility was highly unlikely. Like you, he thought Egypt was too weak and not ready for war.

Estimates like that scare me… 🙂

Yossi

I agree with you: there is no way Syria will engage in a traditional war to get back the Golan. People in Syria are not radicalized, they are tired of hearing and seeing wars. Iraq war, Lebanon war and recently Gaza war largely reported visually on satellite TV and Internet have been traumatic and have totally convinced most arabs that this cannot happen again. I think the time for large scale wars is over.
So either we are going for a on statu quo for another decade, or if the USA is able to gather and stimulate a large international consensus, we may see the signs of a solution sooner.

WD,

I’m not suggesting Syria will necessarily initiate war with Israel, though I personally see no reason why it won’t react next time Israel attacks a Syrian target (as it did in Deir Ezzur). But if Israel continues along the Lebanon II, Gaza XV, type-“operations”, and Hezbollah this time hits Tel-Aviv, and two buildings collapse, killing 35 people, who’s to guarantee Israel won’t attack in such way, that Syria will have no choice but to respond? And then Israel responds to that response and… we’re at war (conventional, unconventional, whatever).

The more time passes, the more “the trigger” is pulled back. At some point, something has to give.

I’m not nearly as confident as some are, that war is unlikely.

The Real Root Causes & ME “Courage”

The root of the problem IS 1947.

WD,

Yes I know. Please tell that to Shai and the “occupation” crowd.

Israel and Arabs should have the courage to accept an arbitration on the conflict.

You mean like the 1947 Partition Plan? The Arabs had their chance from 1947 thru 1966.

Give me a break WD!

AP

1947 to 1990 were years where colonialist powers were still trying to keep their colonies by violence : Suez canal, Iraq oil, etc.. it was a time of arab exarcebated nationalism, idealism on ideologies like communism, foreign engineered fall of monarchies, the cold war etc…
No one in the Arab world would have trusted the western powers at that time. No plan could be accepted as it was tainted with suspicions and greed.
This is maybe why Israel was allowed to defend itself by aggressing and occupying more lands, blasting all UN resolution.

Time has changed. The EU is raining ex-colonialist powers by preventing any unilateralism and imposing strict conventions on human rights, the US fiascos in Iraq and Afhanistan, the stubborn stand of Iran has taught these big powers (including Russia) that trying to dominate and take advantage of countries people technologically inferior is not a piece of cake and may backlash. Is it a coincidence that the collapse of the US economy came at the same time as the huge war spendings in Iraq?

This is why I think it is time to revisit 1947 in the light of the present situation on the ground.
I believe that Arabs in majority have lots of curiosity for the others and prefer fun and pleasure to wars.They would accept he change of mood easily. Yet, I wonder sometimes if Israel with its established military and war-oriented industry, culture and mentality can switch to a more understanding and cooperative mood.

Easy (kindergarden level) trivia question of the day:
Who was the founder of the Baas/Baath party?

In the interim, there was an objection to my post about the SPLC and hate groups; I agree that anti-Palestinian hate groups are not under the scrutiny of the SPLC if they are not located on US territory.

Answer to the question:
Zaki Arsouzi, and not late-joiners Michel 3Aflaq or Salaheddine Bittar, created the party. Arsouzi was a 3Alawi from the city of Antioch, currently Antakya in Liwa’ Iskandarona, Turkey.